New idea of for White Council

[THEMANMAN]

Ok my new idea for the White Council (this would be like the good factions calling a crusade on the evil factions) Rivendell would become a new faction and nobody could control them. Rivendell would be like Rome. Each faction would create Champions (these are units that would spread the word of the light like priest) and the upgraded version of Champions would be White Council Member. Every four years (or whatever time span) White Council Members would meet and would elect a leader for the White Council. This would work the same way as electing a Pope(the more your faction has of White Council Members they bigger impact your vote has.) This person would act like the Pope and could issue a Call to Arms. This Call to Arms would be the same as a Crusade and every faction would choose to either join the Call to Arms or not.

The Leader of the White Council would issue out orders to the player as to take a settlement, or construct this building to futher the power of the White Council. Also the Leader would ask the player to attack an evil faction if in range, and also ask they issue a request to defend a faction (regardless how far they are) and ally with them and help defend them.

As an idea of roleplaying it would be the players duty to defend Rivendell from hostile threats if they could, but Rivendell would have an army just like the Pope did.

[Thegooch]

If Rivendell is a faction, what would happen to the city of Imladris? At least for me, it's a pivotal part of my high elf game.

[RomanGuy]

The problem is that the good factions were not this organized lorewise. I think the evil factions should keep the crusade system, it works best for them. However, I might support an idea like this if it was modified for jihads instead as the good factions might need a counter to evil crusades.

[THEMANMAN]

The problem is that the good factions were not this organized lorewise. I think the evil factions should keep the crusade system, it works best for them. However, I might support an idea like this if it was modified for jihads instead as the good factions might need a counter to evil crusades.

I do agree from the lore standpoint, but I do hate it when there is no communication among the good factions and by the time I find out that Gondor or Rohan could use some help they pretty much have nothing left for cities and land and army. So lorewish for the game I am leaning more towards the idea of a White Council, that would call out bring things too the players attention that this faction could use some help before it was too late.

The evil factions should get the Jihad method because Isengard and Orc of the Misty Mountians were pretty much doing things their way for awhile. I really don't think if Sauron put out a call Isengard would respond to it. Jihad would work better for them because its calling all factions to concentrate their attack power in one area. The Invasion call is more of a dictator move.

The White Council would be more of a diplomatic call and trying to tie together the good factions with each other. Like you would recieve a letter from the White Council stating that this faction could use help so declare war on this faction, or send a general and eight units to site A to recieve reward. What would be really cool is if AI would also get these requests and you would be alerted at the start of your turn if the AI decided to follow through with the White Councils demands or not.

[Smaug]

I do agree from the lore standpoint, but I do hate it when there is no communication among the good factions and by the time I find out that Gondor or Rohan could use some help they pretty much have nothing left for cities and land and army. So lorewish for the game I am leaning more towards the idea of a White Council, that would call out bring things too the players attention that this faction could use some help before it was too late.

I think this would be handled better by Twist of Cains suggestion about the player getting notifications about rumours in middle earth.

Check out the thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=301695

[Muffer Nl]

I believe there is only 1 papal states faction possible.

[Muffer Nl]

Well they talked about it but then they would need to give all good factions the same culture. They decided not to do this.

[OfficerJohn]

btw, I don't really like the invasions and crusades - the bonuses... sure the Evil side can have them, but I don't really find them needed in any way...

[Santeri]

I have idea how we could give good factions jihad. I think it works in theory at least, but it requires lots of scripting:

First make two main religions were all factions belongs: good and evil. Then both good and evil can have their own crusade/jihad.

Then make "sub religions" what are called northmen, elves, dwarves and so on. Every faction have their own culture buildings like they have now, but instead spreading good and evil religion, like they should because every factions religion is good or evil, they spread faction sub religion. Eg. High elves religion is good, but their culture building spreads elf sub religion.

Then script so that eg. elven units need elven culture instead of "good religion" and that elves don't get any unrest from elven culture and if possible so that they get some bonuses of it.

Like I said this should work at least in theory, but I'm not sure about practice.

[Inarus]

Realistically the settlement must be ORTHANC

Game-wise the settlement must be Caras Galadron (is that the right spelling?) (It is an expendable settlement and another one could be built in exchange (e.g. Port of Lorien on river's edge)

NOT two Papal States, ONE and Mordor gets Jihads (makes sense).

The culture problem is simple: two religions: "Free Peoples", "Corrupted Forces".

Units must be, for example, "10% Free Peoples Required", "50% Corrupted Forces Required" etc. That way you cannot recruit orcs immediately after capturing Minas Tirith. Unfortunately this cannot be done between Dwarves and Elves etc. But then again we did not complain when we could instantly recruit Easterlings after capturing Barad-dûr, did we?

[Soul Firez]

i again point to the white council being just a guild which could then be given to all good factions regardless of culture/religion . this guild could give missions out to factions to point them together in one direction but loosely not a rigid will do thing like jihad or crusade. The good guys just werent that unified to warrant a jihad the whole point of the third age and saurons near victory was the west was weak divided ready to fall to his unified forces

[Evan MF]

Instead we need the 'goodies' to have Jihads, because this is a 'defensive' alliance which would suit the situation well. I would love to have a Jihad on Osgiliath and end up with Rohan and Gondor fighting along side to retake the city...

[onlyonepinman]

I find the "invasions" a little frustrating. In campaign mode, I've only played Rohan in anger so I'll need people who've played the other factions more to help me out here. It seems to me that the Dark Lord has an unhealthy obsession with Edoras. So much so that in my current campaign, about 100 turns in and I'm currently defending a 3rd invasion. I haven't had any notices saying that Minas Tirith (surely a more important target that Edoras if we're being puritanical about Tolkien's lore!). Ever since the first invasion I've had a huge standing army in Edoras and given that I'm so far into the game, I now also have access to all the Elite troops available (Heavy Lancers, Royal Guard etc). 3 regiments of dismounted royal guards at the gate are enough to see off most troops. Couple that with some axement and a few roving cavalry regiments to cause chaos outside the gates and the Arificial Stupidity can't cope. This has lead to some stunning victories, the best was my 1600 men defeating two combined full stack armies (Mordor and Rhun) containing over 5000 men. Admitedly this was mostly down to poor AI but a victory is a victory. As yet, no Trolls have made it to Edoras. I am very meticulous about making sure armies containing Trolls get nowhere near my capital or it might be a very different story.

So why am I so iritated by invasions? Well, they tie up massive amounts of resources and cut off income but as yet none of them have come close capturing Edoras. The cost of recruiting and maintaining the invading armies offset against a task that the AI has come nowhere near achieving seems a little unrealistic. Plus, I'm sick to death of having to fend off 3 or 4 seiges in a row. It makes turns last bloody ages and no-one is getting any benefit out of my city being under siege. I'm losing income and progress is slow (and by this I mean in 2 or 3 hours I might only play 2 or 3 turns!) while the enemies are just sacrificing thousands of soldiers. Plus, the invasions seem to last for ages, but I suppose that could be down to the way the turns are set up descr_strat. IMO the invasions are doing nothing except granting cheap troops to already powerful factions! I think the game would be every bit as good without them. Actually, I think it would be better without them.

The invasions don't seem to be working as well in TATW as the Crusades/Jihads in MTW.

I certainly don't think that adding a "jihad" ability to the good factions is a suitable concept. As someone has already mentioned, the good factions were far too disparate to warrant it. In fact it was only the War of the Ring and its aftermath that really united the men of the West. Prior to the War, the nations were very insular. Eriador wasn't even a proper nation, more a loose afiliation of towns and cities. The Elves were aloof as always and played little to no part in the closing stages of the War of the Rings and the Dwarves... Well, if you've only read LoTR, you'd be forgiven for thinking Gimli was the last of his race. So in summary, the "good" factions weren't unified enough to warrant being given commands from a single central authority (such as the White Council).

I think the current set-up with alliances is more than adequate to represent the political standing of the good factions.

[THEMANMAN]

I think its funny how people are against any ideas to change the lore of the game, even if it could possible help with the roleplaying. But one should remember that this mod itself goes against the lore of the books in a very ridiculous manner.

The White Council was a bad idea for the name. How about the Council of Elrond. Presumably Elrond would lead this council in Imladris.

What would be really cool about this is we could change the victory conditions for the evil factions. They would have to destory Gondor an another good faction besides the faction that would represent Imladris and then conqure Imladris to win the game.

The good factions would have to do the samething. Defeat the Mordor and another evil faction besides The Dark Lord, then march to Barad-dûr and conqure Barad-dûr. This would get rid of the need to conquer land which becomes too much of a problem. You can still conquer land but it would no longer be required by the victory conditions.

One more change...every time an Invasion is called Edoras would not be called everytime.

[Soul Firez]

A jihad (in relation to how mtw2 uses it ) is not defensive at all in anway its not called to defend a city its called to attack a city and its not always a city that was once muslim at all . The pure mechanics of this game makes a jihad not defensive at all its absurd to even propose its defensive

So to give the good guys would be an altimate lore rape completely this game doesnt follow lore to the dot how can it its a game for goodness sake but why add a feature that is well straight of the bat completely foriegn to the third age . to unify all the good guys under one banner is well just not aplicable at all you could give perhaps jihads to one faction or maybe to the elves so they would work together (thats still not lore correct either but less of a rape.)

I know you have love for this game young master evan but do you ever actually think about what you say or do or does this stuff just pour out with out any though process at all (which is what it seems.)

[Evan MF]

A jihad (in relation to how mtw2 uses it ) is not defensive at all in anway its not called to defend a city its called to attack a city and its not always a city that was once muslim at all . The pure mechanics of this game makes a jihad not defensive at all its absurd to even propose its defensive

So to give the good guys would be an altimate lore rape completely this game doesnt follow lore to the dot how can it its a game for goodness sake but why add a feature that is well straight of the bat completely foriegn to the third age . to unify all the good guys under one banner is well just not aplicable at all you could give perhaps jihads to one faction or maybe to the elves so they would work together (thats still not lore correct either but less of a rape.)

I know you have love for this game young master evan but do you ever actually think about what you say or do or does this stuff just pour out with out any though process at all (which is what it seems.)

Since when do we get Jihads over in Northern Europe, eh? Jihads are called within the proximity of Islamic nations, and historically the Jihads were called to liberate previously captured or significant cities (like a 'defensive attack'). Whereas a Crusade can be ordered anywhere. Plus Jihads aren't cumpolsory to join, on the other hand Crusades are.

Jihads would suite the 'good' factions well because not all would involve themselves and here were many periods in the Third Age when Rohan was called for help by Gondor, or Dale on Dwarves, or Elves to other Elves when they were recapturing Mirkwood....

Crusades work best for 'bad' factions because Sauron united all Orcs under his rule and all evil men on an aggressive invasion on the west, in the same way the Pope united christianity under one banner to conquest in the Holy Lands.

Evan

[Muffer Nl]

They could give Jihad´s to northmen...

[Inarus]

If it is against lore then we might as well remove ELVES BECAUSE THEY ARE A BIGGER "LORE RAPE". They should be LEAVING Middle-Earth NOT conquering it. Need I remind you of the Last Alliance of Elves, Dwarves and Men? Anyway TOTAL WAR GAMES ARE AN ALTERNATE HISTORY.

(That is why you should never try playing SPQR in RomeTW and conquer each faction in historical order: You end up facing massive numbers of Greek Spartans (It's fun actually))

[Soul Firez]

the last aliance of men elves and dwarfs what you mean the second age then ?? most of the elves are leaving yes but they do take part in the third age i did say it was a game so it can never be totally lore accurate and well wouldnt be a game if it wasnt but to suggest something like jihads for a combined good guys well we just making it medieval total war not third age total war i again point out the fact that sauron came close to his objectives is the fact that there is no UNITY in the free peoples of the west and he is united .

But another half cocked comment well done

[DoktorJ]

Why not just give Rohan and Gondor Jihads under the name of a defensive alliance? You don't need to get all factions involved bc that would go against lore but having a Jihad like mechanic that allows Rohan and Gondor to retake Edoras, Minas Tirith, or Hornburg if they are taken makes a lot of sense. Maybe even have a Jihad only merc unit of elven archers to represent the reinforcements sent by the Silvan elves to Hornburg with a recruitment pool of only 1. Of course this would only work to retake already captured settlements, but it would be useful to keep the AI in the game and give players of either of these factions the opportunity to help each other out.