Humanae Vitae: Abortion amongst faithful and non-faithful.

[Monarchist]

Greetings again, (I still hope you are all healthy)

As my last thread in E.M.&.M. (All Hail the Ethereal M&Ms) managed to get a staggering 2800 views in less than a week, I thought that I would expand the discussion. I am moving beyond human sexual realms and personal decisions, into the more familiar religious topic of abortion. The value of life, whether life begins at X or Y or Z, and of artificial miscarriage are widely discussed by Jew, Muslim, Christian, Zoroastrian, Jain, Buddhist, Hindu, and Taoist alike. By a famous Papal encyclical of 1968, the Catholics amongst us were given a directive: Humanae Vitae. In it, Pope Paul VI gave the infamous instruction against the use of contraceptives, but it is most important in my own question in terms of its stance on abortion.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pa...-vitae_en.html

If any post delves into contraception in this thread, I ask that the moderators will politely remove it. This is about human abortion, and nothing more.

In Humanae Vitae, it is clearly instructed that abortion is murder. What does your religion, sect, or denomination say about this issue?

**Religion: Christianity (generic, for now)
Stance: Oppose

Personally, being in a state of flux between churches, I believe that abortion is, indeed, murder and should not be left up to any choice. This is not due to my religion, as I formed this opinion while I was an atheist; however, converting to Christianity did help. I can defend it on religious grounds, naturally, because many religious people believe God inserts the soul (for Jews, the soul comes from the Chamber of Guf, or Hall of Souls) directly into the fertilized egg upon conception. As an atheist... or, rather, under secular terms, I defend my reaction against abortion because I think that 9 months is far too short a span of time to risk having murdered a human being. The simple fact is that a tiny "ball of cells" (as I have seen some pro-death people charmingly call it) is quickly turning and changing into a human being, if not already one at conception. Even as an atheist, I could not fathom ending something which was so fast on its way to becoming one of the glorious things called humans.**

Discuss abortion in terms of danger to the mother, as a choice of a healthy mother, or as a material thing entirely up to the mother at any time. Any conceivable view, for or against, is to be listened to here.

** = To be helpful you might include, at the top of your post, your religion and stance, as I did. For example:

Put down your denomination if you wish; i.e. Orthodox Judaism, Orthodox Christianity, Sunni Islam

"Religion: X
Stance: Oppose
____ (argument)"

"Religion: X
Stance: Support
____ (argument"

[Jabberwock]

Religion: Deistic

The words "support abortion" comes off incorrectly. I support a woman's right to choose.

If a woman wants to abort then go right ahead and if she doesn't that's just fine too. Simple as that.

[MaximiIian]

Religion: Wicca.

Stance: see above. I don't so much support abortion as the right for a woman to choose.
From a philosophical standpoint, I don't care for it; depending on the stage at which the operation is performed, it may or may not violate the harm principle. But that should only pertain to personal involvement in an abortion operation.
From a practical standpoint, it's not my business. It doesn't harm or affect me if a stranger has an abortion or not.

[iudas]

Atheist. I think it is immoral, but should be legal.

[Kjertesvein]

Atheist, and respect others faith.

Stance:
Im not a woman, thus not my business to control, nor any other detatched persons business.

Why:
It should be legal, and regulated in special purposes. It is not my choice, since I will never physicaly carry that burden. Should organistations teach and demonize it: 100% yes, as long as it's facts. Purly manipulative religious grounds should be highly frownd upon.

[motiv-8]

I find it difficult to select an option in this poll, because I am neither "generally" opposed to nor in favor of abortion. I feel that it should be handled on case-by-case basis where all the particular circumstances can be fleshed out.

[Arch-hereticK]

I'm an atheist nut-job, so murder is ok as long as it makes me feel good.
Even with appropriate cause (to save a dying mother/ rape victim) I think abortion is a very dark-grey moral area with absolutely no absolute answer to it.

I am fiercely apposed to it being made illegal as that will drive it under-ground and cause waaaaaaaaay more problems than solve.

[Gromovnik]

And what about polytheists?

[MaximiIian]

And what about polytheists?

Well, he didn't limit it to just Abrahamics and atheists. The form for the post goes:

Religion: x
Stance: agree/disagree, why/why not.

And the poll has the "other" option, down a bit.
In any case, I refused to vote in the poll because none of the options express ambivalence.

[Monarchist]

In any case, I refused to vote in the poll because none of the options express ambivalence.

I personally don't understand how any human being can profess ambivalence on this issue. I would have included that option if I knew morality was held in such a low regard.

To think that anyone believes it's merely a woman's right and a fetus is simply like an inflamed appendix really makes me angry.

[Ludicus]

The last debate (2008)
the great abortion debate rises ~ again

[Arch-hereticK]

I personally don't understand how any human being can profess ambivalence on this issue. I would have included that option if I knew morality was held in such a low regard.

That's a lil bit harsh bro.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

Where is the "I suppose murder of unborn babies no matter what" option?

I am Christian and strongly oppose any kind of abortion. The only exception is where the mother's life is in severe danger. We should do everything possible to save both the mother and baby, but if the baby is lost that is a tragedy.

[Aetius]

I am against anything that infringes upon anyone's life, liberty, or property.

Telling a woman she cannot abort her baby is infringing upon her liberty. Yet, some may say that abortion infringes upon the unborn baby's right to life.

So now we are at a crossroads to where you think life begins. I believe it begins with consciousness, which happens after a baby is born.

Therefore, due to this logic, abortion should remain legal.

[MaximiIian]

So now we are at a crossroads to where you think life begins. I believe it begins with consciousness.

That's pretty much the crux of whatever argument one has. When does it start as "life"? The answer varies as pretty much everyone has a different viewpoint on that.

Personally, I think birth is the juncture. Or at least very slightly before. When the foetus has become fully formed and conscious, and is ready to be born. I think the term "unborn baby" is a misnomer except for the very, very end stages of gestation.

But I don't make a big deal out of it. I'm not a woman, so it's mostly a non-issue for me. It's not worth getting butthurt over.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

So now we are at a crossroads to where you think life begins. I believe it begins with consciousness, which happens after a baby is born.

Babies are conscious before they are born...

[MaximiIian]

I'm not an amoral person. That's a ridiculous misconception on your part. There's a difference between morality and being judgemental. My only morality is the ethic of reciprocity, which enters a grey area in regards to foetuses.

In any case, I get ambivalent about an issue when people yammer about it too much; it's boring, and I get burnt out on it. And, well, there's been enough mud-slinging about abortion to bore me for a thousand years.

[Monarchist]

In any case, I get ambivalent about an issue when people yammer about it too much; it's boring, and I get burnt out on it. And, well, there's been enough mud-slinging about abortion to bore me for a thousand years.

This is what disturbs me, to be honest. Beethoven has been yammered on about since 1812, and yet I don't get sick of hearing about him. Likewise, when one is truly passionate about an issue, one doesn't tire. I intended no offense to you, merely to point out what I thought was wrong.

[MaximiIian]

This is what disturbs me, to be honest. Beethoven has been yammered on about since 1812, and yet I don't get sick of hearing about him.

Music is different from whining, though.

Likewise, when one is truly passionate about an issue, one doesn't tire.

That's the thing. I'm not that passionate about the abortion issue. It's not a personal one for me. I could care less if someone wants to have an abortion, because it doesn't violate my moral principles.

Which is not to say that I don't get passionate about certain issues. However, it's usually just the ones that affect me directly, or affect the people I care about, i.e. my friends and family.
Hence why I do get worked up over, say, the LGBT rights issue or the armament rights issue, but not the abortion debate.

[Ummon]

Every supporter of abortion has not been aborted. That's the best of our knowledge.

As to the standing, therapeutic abortion is allowable.