This is a topic rarely discussed, and I am interested in it. So...
To get it started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
Praeses
Crimea war - What do you think about it?
This is a topic rarely discussed, and I am interested in it. So...
To get it started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
It showed the importance of logistics and proved that Russia needed to pull itself out of the middle ages and build itself some railroads. It led to the abolishion of serfdom, which depending on you look at it was most likely a good thing.
It was really an odd war to start, and even stranger how Britain and France fought together. It, by some standards, was the first modern war. With rapid deployment due to railroads, rapid troop movements, "live coverage" (they called it live but that is laughable by our standards) with the use of telegraphs, etc. In all I think it is an underrated war.
Forget the Cod this man needs a Sturgeon!
Campidoctor
Campidoctor
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
They didn't want a full scale war with Russia, they just wanted to halt it's expansionist tendencies towards the Ottoman Empire, as it was the contained war that the Crimean was (although there was also action in the Baltic and Pacific) suited British and French war aims just fine. The Anglo-French alliance did not want to get bogged down in a massive scale war across Poland and Finland.
If anyone's interested in it, the first half of 'Flashman at the Charge' has a really interesting insight into it, although it's a fictionalised account, the author is really quite fastidious with his historical research so it's a good book to read for a generalised overview of what it was like. Also for a peak at what life was like in pre emancipation Russia, it also helps that the book is bloody hilarious.
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
Agreed. I was surprise that Austria didn't side with Russia though, to repay the favor of the Hungarian revolution.Originally Posted by Salem1
Praeses
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
Yeah, the war led to some serious modernization of Russian state, by Alexander II.
During the war the basic weapon for the Russian infantry was still simple muskets.
Vicarius Provinciae
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
It shows the long held tradition of western powers to intervene on behalf of Muslim forces when an Orthodox Christian power such as Russia is making headway against the Muslim invaders. And that even though France and England our enemies when playing the big game, they still prefer that they are the main players rather than someone else.
"Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."
"We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561
"The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge
Praeses
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
It was the end of Ottomans...with the money they borrowed, they were in debt untill total destruction. Or let's say the time they get IMFed.
uhhh, what?
Last edited by dogukan; October 07, 2009 at 10:06 AM.
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
Praefectus
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
I'm not aware of this "tradition" of Western powers intervening agaist Orthodox when they make headaways against Muslims ... Maybe you can explain it more and show how this is a "tradition".
The second phrase is very unclear but I understand France and England are the enemies of Orthodox? I know that Romania, an Orthodox country gained a lot from this war. And countries in 1800's were far from being divided by religion. Imperialism, nationalism, romanticism, conservatism, liberalism, etc. were the driving ideas in that century. Russia tried to promote ideas as Pan Slavism to gain the favour of most Balkan peoples in her effort to conquer the region and take Constantinople. But when Russians realised Romanians and Greeks are not Slavs they promoted the so called Pan Orthodoxism. It was very hypocritic because the political elites of Russia were very far of the model of an Orthodox beliver. Also for example Romania started to modernise very fast and the idea of Orthodox solidarity was very odd as religion was not anymore the main part of public life in Romanian society that was a very lay society by 1850's.
Biarchus
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
So true.
+rep
Praeses
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
haha what does it mean Grobar? Will you elaborate?
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
hoi polloi
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
Great really, as an American. As a result latent Russian hostility to the UK and France meant the Union had a firm ally in Russia to blunt British and French meddling in the American civil war (than again I'm a Yankee so maybe others have a diffrent opinion). Odd really considering how close Russia drifted to war with France again in 1863, how European affairs always come up lacking in CSA fandom fantasies about Franco-British intervention saving the CSA.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Robespierre v2.0
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
It was a huge waste of men and resources for all parties involved, but a consequence of that waste and weakening of those states was the emergence of a unified Romania 3 years later. The Treaty of Paris tried to keep the principalities separate but the Romanians maneuvered through a loop-hole to have one man elected as prince of both principalities. With the Ottomans and Russians exhausted and the British having little intent to go fight another war in the East 3 years later they were forced to accept the new political reality. France was the only state that supported the unification, probably because Napoleon III saw Romania as France's Latin proxy in the region.
Through this:
1) The Ottoman Empire found itself cut off from its most profitable vassal.
2) The Russians found had a roadblock on their way to Constantinople.
3) The Austrians suddenly saw themselves with with a nation-state whose political gravity risked taking Transylvania (which was majority Romanian) away from them, further off-balancing the polyglot empire.
Maybe I am tooting my own horn a little, but it seems Romania was somehow the cause of the collapse of 3 empires in the East. Breaking empires seems to have become a cultural tradition for us since 271AD.
Last edited by Romano-Dacis; October 06, 2009 at 06:14 PM.
Comes Domesticorum
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
No, the reason was the Napolean III was planning to form EU as France as leader; it happened again during Italian Unification and again when Prussia challenged Austria, as Napolean III thought if he supported those "new powers" they would be grateful enough to follow France's lead.
Irony, this evil EU plan was actually realized because Muslim and Russian threat, in 1956.
Robespierre v2.0
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
I don't think this is true, especially given the trend of the times towards nation-states away from massive empires formed of inherited or entitled domains to rulers. I can hardly understand a union between France and Italy but France gaining possession of Romania? With the zeitgeist of nationalism in the air? I doubt it.
Or do you mean a political alliance of these new powers around France?
Comes Domesticorum
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
No, what Napolean III wanted was "United States of Europe" against Russia and Great Britain.
Mad Nomad Dad
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
My favorite war.
When everything goes right, one cannot understand nor appreciate everything that defines war beyond set piece battles.
Primicerius
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
It prevented Russia from building a fleet in the black sea to threaten to the ottomans weakened their hegomeny on that area that had to abide to treaty by the UK and France after the crimean war. However after the defeat of Napoleon III in 1871 to Prussia the new French Republic pulled out of the crimean treaty and the UK couldn't enforce the treaty on Russia or fight her alone so the Russians rebuild their fleet again with no outside interference from anyone and started to expand hegomeny in balkans.
Crimean War changed Russia forever and as someone said on here that led to Alexander II modernizing railways etc, however 15 years later Russia started moving against Ottomans in the balkans liberating Romania, Siberia and Montenegro and no one did anything about it. The Balkan problems and crisis did a play a part that led up to WWI lol i am sure that Bismarck was aware that this was going to happen.
Robespierre v2.0
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
I really didn't want to start an off-topic debate, but this needs to be clarified.
1) Serbia, not Siberia.
2) The statement that "Russia liberated Romania" is completely incorrect since there were no Ottoman troops in Romania, Romania's army participated in the war, and the Romanian participation was largely responsible for the success of the Balkan offensive (see Battle of Plevna).
3) You left out Bulgaria, which was in fact the primary concern of Russia going in, as that was going to be their road to Constantinople.
Primicerius
Re: Crimea war - What do you think about it?
It's interesting how Britain rushed to ''protect'' Turkey from Russia in Crimean war but didn't mind to take part of Turkey ( Cyprus ) for it self 20 years latter. But my favourite player in this whole mess was Austria which was litteraly saved from destruction by Russian troops in 1848-49. while in the Crimean war it almost attacked Russia...man has to wander which thing was bigger: Austrian hypocrisy or Russian stupidity.
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