Stopping the Ptolemaic Empire?

[FriendlyFire]

I discovered RTW six weeks ago, and Extended Realism three week ago. Haven't had much sleep since It's a truly awesome mod, and my thanks to all who have contributed to it in any way, shape or form.

To set the scene for my question, I'm playing my first campaign as Rome, hard/medium with large unit sizes. I'm generally sticking to the Roman guide: bringing my characters up through the ranks, 2x2x1 Roman legions paired with AOR and mercenary auxilia, and slow expansion and power-trading instead of hell-for-leather conquest (my one weakness is trading retinue amongst characters, which is almost a mini-game in itself). I avoid bridge battles, spies for opening gates, assassination of Generals, and any other AI weak spots I've forgotten...


I've kept notes and could do a full AAR thread if anyone's interested, but a quick summary would be:

• 280-274 BC: I push the Epirotes back to Apollonia, and when they refuse a ceasefire I take that too, wiping them out and gaining a tiny foothold in Greece.
• 273-268 BC: Expand into remaining rebel cities in mainland Italy. Meanwhile several important alliances form: Carthage and the Ptolemaic Empire, Carthage and Numidia, and Macedonia and the Greek Cities.
• 267-266 BC: The Greek Cities declare war and besiege Apollonia. I fight them off the walls (my first heroic victory), but secretly welcome the excuse to grab their half of Sicily.
• 265-261 BC: The Carthaginians declare war and blockade a port, so I grab their half of Sicily too. Meanwhile the Gauls want Bononia. After I fight off three sieges I decide enough is enough, sack their towns in Cisalpine Gaul, then give them all back via forced diplomacy (when I just let the towns rebel I was horrified to see half-stacks of Gallic Noble Cavalry appear, so I replayed that turn!)
• 261-260 BC: The Macedonians decides they want Apollonia too. I fight them off, and then grab Scodra, which they had just captured from hapless Illyria.
• 260-256 BC: The Gauls don't know when to quit, attacking me with the same garrisons from the towns I just gave back to them, so I now enslave all their towns in Cisalpine Gaul (those townspeople really had a rough few years!). Meanwhile the Thracians have almost finished off Illyria, who I want to keep as a weak allied buffer state. I beat Thrace back, take Segestica off them and give it back to the Illyrians, and generally restore a balance of power.
• 255-253 BC: The Macedonians and the Greek Cities both keep attacking and refuse any ceasefires, so I take Thermon from the Greeks, and Larissa from the Macedonians.
• 253-251 BC: That seems to calm the Greeks down, and although they have some huge stacks around Sparta, they can't get out by land without going through the territory of their Macedonian allies. The Macedonians keep attacking me, so I take Pella and Thessalonica from them. I also watch their capital rebel and then be captured by the lurking Ptolemaic Empire, so they have problems of their own. Meanwhile I'm fighting off large Gallic armies in Cisalpine Gaul every year or two.

That brings us up to the current situation. In the east, the Ptolemaic Empire has almost finished off the Seleucids. They now control most of Asia Minor, and have a foothold in eastern Macedonia. In the west, the Carthaginians and Numidians are dividing Iberia amongst themselves. I have Cisalpine Gaul, Italy, Sicily, and five defensible cities in Greece/Macedonia. My main trading partner is Carthage, who accepted a ceasefire a few years after I took Sicily. I'm allied with the Seleucids (dying), Iberians (dying), Illyrians (propped up), and Germans (fighting Sarmatia). Greece, Macedonia, Gaul, and Thrace all seem implacable but now fatally weakened enemies, refusing any ceasefires (or going back on them, as Gaul did).

Right now it seems like Carthage is expanding clockwise around the Mediterranean, while the Ptolemaic Empire is expanding anticlockwise, and I'm going to be caught in the middle when they inevitably meet. Carthage can wait for a while, but the pressure from the east is getting intense. I fear I have to go on the offensive and grab the remaining Macedonian cities before the Ptolemaic Empire decides they'd like those mines for themselves.

The question is, then what? Should I content myself with trying to "box in" their couple of cities this side of the straits, or should I actively declare war and try to throw them back across the sea? And how do I keep Carthage happy in the meanwhile, so that I have anyone at all left to trade with?

All this, plus I face the pressure of time: my two best generals have just made Consul, but could both be dead of old age in a couple of years. And the new crop is proving... tricky. One particularly fertile but "unusual" Legate spawned four children in Gaul, the first three of which have turned out to be a cripple, scare-the-children-ugly, and hooting mad. I fear what the Gods have in store for the fourth one.

[despot_of_rhodes]

If you want to see the true Ptoley monster, just toggle the fog of war and watch their, i assume, about 20 stacks roaming around. This is still, sadly, the way superfactions ( big boys, so to say ) develope, and the only effective, though kind of last ressort, measure is to make a D-Day on their initial holdings in Egypt, and the Middle East, sack their cities, destroy the infrastructure, especially their barracks, and let them rebell or give them away to Seleucids ( then you should keep the initial greek barracks in the Middle East ).

Btw: If you controll the carthaginians settlements instead of them, you would still prosper through the trade with your other settlements, and, at the same time, get not only a foothold in North Africa, but also large and developed cities, wich aren´t too difficult to keep under controll ( not very far from Roma ). But this is not very accurate, historically, so you might have fun struggling in Iberia, helping your dieying allies

[pannonian]

The basis of the Ptolemaic or Seleucid superfaction is the Cyprus-Levant trading triangle. Without that, the holdings in Anatolia are relatively vulnerable to attack, while Egypt doesn't provide enough of an economic base to fund multiple stacks. If a way can be found to keep the Levant independent, it would go a long way towards stopping the superfactions.

[despot_of_rhodes]

Well, then it should be clear a target to place another "active" faction there, or make it a part of superfaction ( the one supposed to contain Maurians, Numidians and Arabs, or Sabeans, iirc ). Because this emerging of powerplayers after aproximatly 30-40 years in the campaign mostly "kills" all the historical accuracy, wich is beeing carefully researched to the present day, to give a player kind of good athmosphere, imo.

[Heinz Guderian]

Excellent first post Friendlyfire. I enjoyed reading your exploits and current geopolitical status. I do find in my campaigns that one of Macedonia, Ptolemy or Seleucid become superfactions which can often be difficult to deal with and sometimes spoils enjoyment. I do use a way to address this which some people may find unacceptable. I too till avoid bridge battles, assassins, spies/unlocked gates etc, but i do use force_diplomacy to force factions do shuffle territory or quit attacking.

I only use this when i believe enjoyment of a game can be enhanced or to help out a faction. For example, in my current game, the Ptolemies are attacking the Greeks across Asia Minor, but the Greeks decide it wise to attack my Roman Empire through Tarentumm with a 5 unit stack. I can easily defeat this investment, and seize cities such as Appollonia and Segesta, but i want Greece to concentrate on their defence of their homelands against the Ptolemies. I think it would aid their strategic AI and add to enjoyment of the game. Therefore i use force_diplomacy to make the Greeks agree to a cease fire and even provide them with money every turn.

In your game, perhaps resurrecting the Seleucids to a certain degree may help you. E.g. make the Ptolemies give you the regions in Cyprus and the Levant (as Pann mentioned) and give them to the Seleucids. I think it would enhance the enjoyment of your campaign.

[Sorceri]

This is an intriguing thread. Your campaign looks just like so many of mine. I wonder if a script or code could be added that would make all wars cease during the wintertime forcing wars to be re-started the next spring. Or perhaps a turn limit for wars could be written which when expired automatically causes the war between those factions end? Would this have any desirable influence on the AI? Would it have any historical accuracy (how long did wars last in those days)? Maybe it would at least slow down the cpu factions expansion a bit. Sorry if this is a poor idea. I don't really know enough about it, I'm just thinking out loud. I really appreciate all of you who know so much about the world back then and bring it to life for the rest of us!

[Quinn Inuit]

Welcome to the boards, FriendlyFire!

I'm glad you're enjoying this so much. Here's some strategic advice:
Don't let Carthage get a common border with you. War will be inevitable then.
Take Greece and Macedon A.S.A.P. The resources will help you immensely.
Don't bother with Gaul yet. Wall yourself in at the Alps.
Hit the Ptolies hard. I recommend capturing Cyprus and then hanging on for dear life there. Expect massive attacks on a constant basis. Also, establish contact with Bactria and Parthia and help them out. They'll keep the Ptolies distracted.

DoR: 20 stacks? That's not acceptable. Somebody's making too much trade income if that's happening. I need to do some more playtesting and maybe implement an across-the-board 10% cut.

The next version should reduce the propensity for anyone to start steamrolling, but it needs more testing.

Do you think I should put the income reduction resource in Cyprus, too? It's had a salutary effect in making Greece less of a super-valuable region.


Edit:
Sorceri, you can do that as a player whenever you want using force diplomacy (FD is built in now), but the problem with scripting it is that the AI is dumb as a rock and will go right back to war.

[FriendlyFire]

Thanks all for the advice and feedback! I think for now I'll let the game "play out", and go with Quinn's idea of a land-grab of the remaining riches of Macedon and Greece, followed by a sneak invasion of Cyprus (hadn't realized that Cyprus/Levant is so critical for the Ptolies), and a land-based push to kick them off "my" landmass. Once I've secured that I can see where things stand, and what the next biggest threat is. But I've got saved games for every turn, so I can always try out alternative strategies too. Might be fun to come back later and try Heinz Guderian's idea of simulating a massed revolt of Asia Minor against the Ptolemids, reverting to their old Seleucid masters!

I'm also realizing that this kind of agonizing is probably a good indication of how much better this mod is than basic RTW. I mean, I'm having to think far enough ahead to realize that the Macedonians have to be eliminated ASAP, so that I can quickly secure a good economic base and geographic borders against the even bigger threat in the east. In RTW I had steamrollered most of Egypt by this point, and it was all too easy - the only interest in the last few turns of my campaign was whether I could eliminate Egypt before I conquered Rome. Whereas in this ER campaign I'm actually scared of where things will be in 10 years time if I don't start putting the moves in place now

[Quinn Inuit]

That's the idea. My goal is to make it a bloody tough game, but fair.

[FriendlyFire]

So far, so good. I had misread the age of my best consul - he was only 48, not 58, so he still has at least a decade of campaigning in him

At the end of 251 BC I set things rolling by grabbing Philippi from the weakened Macedonians, followed the next summer by Bylazora. This left me with a new neighbor in the Ptolemaic Empire, and I didn't trust them at all. They bit immediately, walking a "neutral" 3/4-stack deep into my territory and right up to the gates of Bylazora, where I fell upon them in ambush from the woods. The resulting slaughter triggered a declaration of war, but I felt pretty good about things -- the Macedonians still controlled the northern land bridge at Byzantion, the Greeks and Macedonians blocked the southern land bridge outside Athens, and I had just wiped out the major Ptolemaic army on this side of the straits.

Then I took a second look at the map and realized there are two more land bridges in the middle, near the city of Maronia! As long as the Ptolemaic Empire controlled Maronia they could march an infinite supply of armies across from Asia Minor, and choose when and where to attack me, forcing me into a reactive mode. This would be a recipe for disaster. So 249 BC was spent wiping out another freshly-arrived stack, besieging and taking Maronia, sending a smaller force north to grab their other city of Tylis, and sallying against the inevitable counter-siege of Maronia.

It's now 247 BC, and for the past two years there's been a battle pretty much every season: my 1st Consular Army sits just outside Maronia, and the Ptolemids either send a stack across the land bridge to sit next to me, or just sit it outside Pergamon and wait for me to walk over instead. Thankfully my losses are low and easily replaceable, and as long as I always return to guard Maronia at the end of each season I can keep this up essentially indefinitely.

The current Ptolemaic army mix is about 75% phalanx units (Pezoi, Persian Phalangitai, and Libyan Pikemen), with the remaining 25% being Persian Sparabara light infantry and maybe a unit or two of Peltastai. First I send out mercenary Cretan Archers and Rhodian Slingers to deal with any peltasts, and wear the rest of the enemy down. Then my two Samnite Light Infantry units run out to slaughter the Sparabara, proving the superiority of armor and swords vs. small shields and spears. Meanwhile my two Principes and two Picene Hoplite units form a thin front line to absorb the phalanx push in guard mode, relying on high defense to dodge the phalanx spearpoints. This allows my Hastati and Samnite Heavy Infantry to run round the flanks and start hitting engaged phalanx units from the side and rear. My Triarii are a mobile reserve, plugging any gaps, and once the rout starts my Tarentine Light Cavalry run down the routers. With these tactics I'm getting kill ratios of 10:1 to 20:1, and a couple of heroic victories so far. And in strategic terms the Ptolemaic Empire loses a full stack a season, while I just top up each units with 3-5 men from reinforcement units idly twiddling their thumbs in the Maronia garrison

In the meantime my second Consul had the temerity to die of old age before I'd secured the two Macedonian coastal cities to the east. I had to recall an elderly Provincial Governor to the position of Praetor, give him a hot-shot young Tribune (who's the true commander in battle), and march them off with a single legion to conquer Apollonia Pontica. Then they'll come down the coast to grab Byzantion, giving me a solid chunk of defensible territory and securing the northern land bridge.

This could be a little tricky, because the barbarian Galatians have been marching across that same land bridge to besiege Byzantion for years, and I doubt they'll stop just because I happen to control it. My spy there reports Auxilia buildings from the Barbarians, Greeks, and Macedonians, all in the same city! I have little love for the Galatians: they allied with the Ptolemaic Empire to squeeze out the Seleucids, were backstabbed by the Ptolemids once the Seleucids were crushed, and then cravenly engineered another ceasefire in order to hold onto their cities along the north coast of Asia Minor. So I will enjoy beating back their barbarian armies from the gates of Byzantion.

Once the Byzantion and Maronia land bridges are secure (and acting as good training grounds for future Legates!), my next major push will be through Athens and into the Greek and Macedonian cities to the south, wiping them off the mainland and securing the southern land bridge. Then it's a seaborne invasion of the Ptolemaic Empire's heartland, to crush their economy and troop-building centers.

Activity in other areas remain in Rome's favor: I'm trading with Carthage, and watching them fight in Iberia. Even if they beat the Iberians (and somehow stay allied with the Numidians), they'll still have to fight through the Gauls to reach me. The Gauls themselves are just as stupid and barbaric as ever, sending full stacks through the Cisalpine passes to be slaughtered in ambush, or run away from set-piece battles on the plains. My two legions in Cisalpine Gaul were the first to reach silver chevrons, despite having old-style auxilia units of Marsi Swordsmen and Marsi Heavy Spearmen, long since replaced by Samnite Heavy Infantry and Picene Hoplites in my "modern" legions. And to my east, I accepted a ceasefire from Thrace, but I'm still watching to make sure that they don't overpower my little Illyrian allies.

[Quinn Inuit]

This sounds like a great game so far.

My comments as a developer:
1) The Ptolies have way too many full stacks. I'm glad I've nerfed sea trade and the Levant in the next version.
2) The Gauls have lots of full stacks? Odd. Do they control the southern French ports now? Otherwise, how are they affording them?
3) What's the composition of the Gallic armies like?
4) Thanks for the Ptolemaic army composition breakdown. That confirms Iskander's suspicion that elite units are too expensive. I've cut their costs a bit in the next version, and now it's time for some testing.

[FriendlyFire]

This sounds like a great game so far.

My comments as a developer:
1) The Ptolies have way too many full stacks. I'm glad I've nerfed sea trade and the Levant in the next version.
2) The Gauls have lots of full stacks? Odd. Do they control the southern French ports now? Otherwise, how are they affording them?
3) What's the composition of the Gallic armies like?
4) Thanks for the Ptolemaic army composition breakdown. That confirms Iskander's suspicion that elite units are too expensive. I've cut their costs a bit in the next version, and now it's time for some testing.

Yep, the Gauls control all of modern-day France as far as I know, including the southern ports. And I suspect they send stacks my way because they don't really have anyone else to fight -- they've done no more than skirmish with the Iberians, seem happy to stay at peace with the Germans, and the Britons have yet to been seen on the mainland. And there's a definite "pause to rebuild" after each futile attack.

Composition of their armies in the last few battles (not counting depleted units of < 1/2 strength):
Spring 250 BC: Two generals, four Warbands, one Gallic Warband, two Skirmisher Warbands. ~20% got out alive.
Summer 248 BC: The same two generals, five Gallic Warbands, one Skirmisher Warband, two Gallic Swordsmen, one Naked Fanatics, one Gallic Noble Cavalry. ~50% got out alive.
Autumn 248 BC: Two Warbands, three Skirmisher Warbands, three Swordsmen, one Naked Fanatics, two Veneti Warriors, one Chosen Spearmen. ~1% got out alive.
Spring 247 BC: Faction leader, five Warbands, two Gallic Warbands, three Swordsmen, one Chosen Swordsmen, one Naked Fanatics. Only one Gaul got out alive, to relay the news of the king's death

Not a bad force mix, and reasonable barbarian tactics: Skirmisher Warbands engage first (and get murdered by my Gallic Slinger mercenaries), then maybe one Warband comes out and runs back again, then a pause to taunt, then a wave of Warbands, closely followed by a wave of the heavy infantry. But easy for a good Roman line to handle with minimal losses, as long as I can match up my Marsi Heavy Spearmen and Marsi Swordsmen against Warbands instead of the sword-wielding heavy infantry.

In the past I've also seen them use Island Warriors (those javelins were a nasty surprise), Germanic Spearmen, Gallic Light Cavalry, and the Gallic missile cavalry. And they used to bring Forester Warbands, but I last saw one of those in 251 BC, and made sure to run them all down in the rout!

Edit: In some stacks I've seen as many as half of the units as remnants, which really hurts the AI. These can still be tricky to fight, because I don't want a full Principes unit to stop to fight a little 4-man Warband (who still have good morale because they entered the battle with 5 men!), when there are Chosen Swordsmen charging right behind them. Still, since I haven't let many remnants escape from the last two Gallic armies, I have high hopes that the *next* stack will be a "real" full stack

[Quinn Inuit]

Interesting. Ok, I'm glad that the Gauls don't seem too rich and their stacks are pretty good. Bad army compositions (full stacks of hypaspistai, to be precise) in RTR6G were what got my into modding in the first place, so I fight them every chance I get.

The remnant issue is troublesome, but I'm hoping that by reducing everyone's money there won't be as many full stacks in the first place. Does anyone think it would be worth the effort to introduce an automerge script?

[pannonian]

Interesting. Ok, I'm glad that the Gauls don't seem too rich and their stacks are pretty good. Bad army compositions (full stacks of hypaspistai, to be precise) in RTR6G were what got my into modding in the first place, so I fight them every chance I get.

The remnant issue is troublesome, but I'm hoping that by reducing everyone's money there won't be as many full stacks in the first place. Does anyone think it would be worth the effort to introduce an automerge script?

It might not be the case when several stacks combine, but in BI.exe, AI remnants automatically merge after a battle, hence the automerge script for TIC serves to even up the playing field between AI and humans.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Interesting. Ok, I'm glad that the Gauls don't seem too rich and their stacks are pretty good. Bad army compositions (full stacks of hypaspistai, to be precise) in RTR6G were what got my into modding in the first place, so I fight them every chance I get.

The remnant issue is troublesome, but I'm hoping that by reducing everyone's money there won't be as many full stacks in the first place. Does anyone think it would be worth the effort to introduce an automerge script?

A little reply on the bold part, I have to say that this mod indeed makes good army compositions.
The successors really use phalanx armies supported by cavalry, peltasts and AOR units....it's great!

on topic:
As mentioned earlier are coastal raids...just raid the levant with a stack or two, and make sure there is a ballista with them.
This way you can take a city, destroy it's infrastructure, and get back on the ships in one turn, without enemy reinforcements!
Force diplomacy does wonders too....if a faction gets ahistorical big I just force it's richest regions to me, and then force diplomacy the regions to whatever weak factions I can find, or just let them rebel.

[Africanus]

Not to hijack the thread, but as you can see I'm having the same trouble wih the Seleucids. I've been battling (and wiping out) 3 or 4 full stacks every turn for about 40 turns. My master assassin is also killing a FM nearly every turn, but the full stacks and family members keep coming ad nauseum. With all due respect, fighting four full stacks (plus any other battles with my other enemies) every turn is taking away some of the enjoyment of this otherwise enjoyable mod.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[pannonian]

It's the curse of the Levant. Whoever conquers that area, usually the Ptolies but sometimes the Selkies, will conquer the rest of the east, and send endless stacks through Anatolia until you take the Levant from them. One of Quinn's aims for the next version is to partly neuter that area.

[Quinn Inuit]

It might not be the case when several stacks combine, but in BI.exe, AI remnants automatically merge after a battle, hence the automerge script for TIC serves to even up the playing field between AI and humans.

Ah, interesting. Good to know, thanks.

A little reply on the bold part, I have to say that this mod indeed makes good army compositions.
The successors really use phalanx armies supported by cavalry, peltasts and AOR units....it's great!

I'm glad you're enjoying it!

It's the curse of the Levant. Whoever conquers that area, usually the Ptolies but sometimes the Selkies, will conquer the rest of the east, and send endless stacks through Analtolia until you take the Levant from them. One of Quinn's aims for the next version is to partly neuter that area.

Definitely. I hate seeing pictures like that first one. In the next version, sea trade bonuses have been reduced to almost nothing, that whole area probably has its bonuses reduced _to_ nothing (maybe 1, depending on what you build), and there's one fewer region there. Makes for a much slower game--and one that gives the barbs a fighting chance. Tests have been promising thus far.

[FriendlyFire]

Africanus's first picture makes me *very* glad that I took Maronia before the Ptolemaic stacks started arriving -- instead of defending city walls, my Consular Army can sit in the bottom right corner of that picture (just above the blue glass symbol) and pick them off as they come over. I'm also about 40 years earlier, which must mean fewer family members and fewer elite troops for me to deal with. And they've just over-stretched themselves a little in my game, weakening the garrisons of their nearby towns to the point where Prusa (top right in second picture) just rebelled back to its original Seleucid masters, complete with a shiny new garrison of three elite phalanx units, heavy cavalry, and even Scorpions. Barely more than a speedbump to a full Ptolemaic stack, but fun to see it happen

[Heinz Guderian]

I enjoy your posts FriendlyFire. Keep em coming and i want regular updates!

Definitely. I hate seeing pictures like that first one. In the next version, sea trade bonuses have been reduced to almost nothing, that whole area probably has its bonuses reduced _to_ nothing (maybe 1, depending on what you build), and there's one fewer region there. Makes for a much slower game--and one that gives the barbs a fighting chance. Tests have been promising thus far.

this has made me not a little excited