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  1. #1
    DAVIDE's Avatar QVID MELIVS ROMA?
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    Default Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin




    ROME (Reuters) – An Italian scientist says he has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake.
    The shroud, measuring 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches bears the image, eerily reversed like a photographic negative, of a crucified man some believers say is Christ.
    "We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud," Luigi Garlaschelli, who is due to illustrate the results at a conference on the para-normal this weekend in northern Italy, said on Monday.
    A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, Garlaschelli made available to Reuters the paper he will deliver and the accompanying comparative photographs.
    The Shroud of Turin shows the back and front of a bearded man with long hair, his arms crossed on his chest, while the entire cloth is marked by what appears to be rivulets of blood from wounds in the wrists, feet and side.
    Carbon dating tests by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson, Arizona in 1988 caused a sensation by dating it from between 1260 and 1390. Sceptics said it was a hoax, possibly made to attract the profitable medieval pilgrimage business.
    But scientists have thus far been at a loss to explain how the image was left on the cloth.
    Garlaschelli reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages.
    They placed a linen sheet flat over a volunteer and then rubbed it with a pigment containing traces of acid. A mask was used for the face.

    PIGMENT, BLOODSTAINS AND SCORCHES


    The pigment was then artificially aged by heating the cloth in an oven and washing it, a process which removed it from the surface but left a fuzzy, half-tone image similar to that on the Shroud. He believes the pigment on the original Shroud faded naturally over the centuries.
    They then added blood stains, burn holes, scorches and water stains to achieve the final effect.
    The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith, but says it should be a powerful reminder of Christ's passion.
    One of Christianity's most disputed relics, it is locked away at Turin Cathedral in Italy and rarely exhibited. It was last on display in 2000 and is due to be shown again next year.
    Garlaschelli expects people to contest his findings.
    "If they don't want to believe carbon dating done by some of the world's best laboratories they certainly won't believe me," he said.
    The accuracy of the 1988 tests was challenged by some hard-core believers who said restorations of the Shroud in past centuries had contaminated the results.
    The history of the Shroud is long and controversial.
    After surfacing in the Middle East and France, it was brought by Italy's former royal family, the Savoys, to their seat in Turin in 1578. In 1983 ex-King Umberto II bequeathed it to the late Pope John Paul.
    The Shroud narrowly escaped destruction in 1997 when a fire ravaged the Guarini Chapel of the Turin cathedral where it is held. The cloth was saved by a fireman who risked his life.
    Garlaschelli received funding for his work by an Italian association of atheists and agnostics but said it had no effect on his results.
    "Money has no odor," he said. "This was done scientifically. If the Church wants to fund me in the future, here I am."


    source:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091005/...s_italy_shroud

    i wasnt sure if this thing had to go in VV or Ethos more et monastica section..


    EDIT:


    left the replica, right the original





    left the original, right the replica

    Last edited by DAVIDE; October 05, 2009 at 01:45 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    i don't think it will change anything, people who believe it will still believe it.
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  3. #3
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Heh, no. It's actually quite interesting. Not final, but rather interesting.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    it's just a question of faith. There are yet some believers in Italy, which think saints statues can cry blood

  5. #5

    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Cannot the Shroud still hold spiritual significance even if it is not the real thing?
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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Cannot the Shroud still hold spiritual significance even if it is not the real thing?
    The real issue is, is this identical in form and appearance? Only cross-comparison will confirm if the claims above are true. I remember several false claims on these issues.

    In any case, that would be a no. If the shroud is false it has no significance.

    But being able to build a fake tree doesn't mean every tree is fake.
    Last edited by Ummon; October 05, 2009 at 01:30 PM.

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    DekuTrash's Avatar Human Directional
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Didn't carbon dating place this in the 1200's?
    Anywho it remains an item of spirituality for many



  8. #8

    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Quote Originally Posted by DekuTrash View Post
    Didn't carbon dating place this in the 1200's?
    Anywho it remains an item of spirituality for many
    I think that was found out to be due to the tunic being fixed at that time. A small patch was done at place the samples were collected. So the dating was done on the patch instead of the real thing.
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    I think that was found out to be due to the tunic being fixed at that time. A small patch was done at place the samples were collected. So the dating was done on the patch instead of the real thing.
    na, that counter-theory was debunked too
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    DAVIDE's Avatar QVID MELIVS ROMA?
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin





    left the replica, right the original





    left the original, right the replica

    Last edited by DAVIDE; October 05, 2009 at 01:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Quote Originally Posted by davide.cool View Post




    left the replica, right the original





    left the original, right the replica

    If that's it, that's very unconvincing.

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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    If that's it, that's very unconvincing.
    why? let the replica take 1000 years of dust and match will be perfect

  13. #13

    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    But being able to build a fake tree doesn't mean every tree is fake.
    Always coming up with these things five steps ahead of me... blah.
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  14. #14
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    It's quite different. No traces of liquid soaking, etc. I await further data, this meanwhile doesn't seem much.

  15. #15
    Publius Clodius Pulcher's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    It's quite different. No traces of liquid soaking, etc. I await further data, this meanwhile doesn't seem much.
    That's because this one hasn't been sitting in a church for 800 years. When you consider that different models were used also and this is a pretty close mock up of the shroud using only medieval technology. When you can see that medieval people were able to do it, had the opportunity, had the incentive, and the shroud dates to apx 1200, you have to ignore a lot of evidence to keep believing in the shroud.

    To be honest, it's amazing that so many people believe in the relics like they do. Why would some random cathedral in France have Mary's cloak, 800 years after the fact? Or do you truly believe that Constantine's mother came to Jerusalem 300 years after the fact and found the actual true cross? Especially when the whole city had been leveled 250 years before?

    Believing in Christ, his disciples and saints is something entirely different than being gullible enough to believe in 95% of these so called relics.






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