Battle of Stalingrad decisions that could of been made for sixth army???

[jackwei]

Could of the disaster of the German sixth army and 4th panzer army been avoided???

Should Hitler listened to Franz Helder about the warning of the German flanks being properly secured or else a disaster would of occcured that led to the sixth army to its fate??

Could Fredrich von Paulaus broken out of the encirclement by the soviet army in early December since prehaps the the sixth army would of had enough fuel to prehaps breakout, also would of had a better chance meeting up with the 4th panzer army??

The Romanian and Italian armes wasn't equiped well enough to cope with the Russian counter-attacks in operation Uranus probably if they were equiped with armor rather than just guns and small artillery than prehaps a better chance they of had to hold of the soviets??

The Sixth Army prehaps should of captured the oilfields to the south before Stalingrad as that would of weaken the soviets considerably and end up breaking down their country. Probably the attack on Stalingrad could of been delayed as the Luftwafte could concerntrate on bombing it while the oilfields were being secured and then when ready finish the soviets off in Stalingrad???

[il padrino]

Could of the disaster of the German sixth army and 4th panzer army been avoided???

probably yes,but thank God the 6th army was destroyed.

[Tiberios]

I'm thinking theye should hav crossed the Volga North and South of the city, effectively surrounding it and the either attack the city or just let it starve. At least they should have crossed the volga and cut the russian supply line.

[Danny_K_1]

As far as I know Stalingrad wasn't necessary, it was of little strategic importance with the exception of the River Volga. It was really the name of the city that enticed Hitler to go for it.

[Boyar Son]

Could of the disaster of the German sixth army and 4th panzer army been avoided???

hitler should have ordered "not one step back".

[Dr. Croccer]

hitler should have ordered "not one step back".

Erm, he did. The 6th Army, when encircled, was forbidden to attempt to break out towards the German lines.

I'm thinking theye should hav crossed the Volga North and South of the city, effectively surrounding it and the either attack the city or just let it starve. At least they should have crossed the volga and cut the russian supply line.

Well, that would've been very hard. Seeing as they would have to weaken troop concentrations within the city itself.

We have the benefit of hindsight. The Germans were completely unaware that the Soviets were preparing a mass offensive. Stalingrad acted as bait without them realizing it.

[Boyar Son]

Erm, he did. The 6th Army, when encircled, was forbidden to attempt to break out towards the German lines.

well did he use MG's to shoot retreaters?

[Dr. Croccer]

well did he use MG's to shoot retreaters?

It was impossible to retreat on your own and, later, impossible to break out at all. Hitler assured Paulus that the Luftwaffe would airlift enough resources for a hedgehog defence, which was of course ridiculous. He also demanded that the encirclement should be ended immediately with a massive counteroffensive, Operation Winter Storm, which failed due to another Soviet offensive and lack of support from both Hitler and Paulus in the sense of the 6th Army breaking out.

The German measures against ''treachery'' were as harsh as ever. Deserters were often shot if caught in the act or planning to do so, but this weakened as the troops became more disillusioned and Soviet propaganda became more effective.

[Nikitn]

well did he use MG's to shoot retreaters?

It was the same system as in WW1, people who ran away were shot to prevent a mass rout.

Lysimachus, you must remember that crossing the Volga while fighting off Soviet troops would be extremely hard, and one couldn't just avoid Stalingrad either, which was a fortress.

Why were the Germans superior in open country through the war? By 1943 the Red Army was fighting the Wermacht in open country and winning. By 1945 the Wermacht was almost routing from the Red Army.

[Tiberios]

Well, that would've been very hard. Seeing as they would have to weaken troop concentrations within the city itself.

We have the benefit of hindsight. The Germans were completely unaware that the Soviets were preparing a mass offensive. Stalingrad acted as bait without them realizing it.

I know. I'm just thinking that they should have sourrounded the city from the beginning and not getting bogged down in streetfighting.

[jackwei]

I know. I'm just thinking that they should have sourrounded the city from the beginning and not getting bogged down in streetfighting.

Then you "Not one step Backwards" strategy by Stalin would of been enough to hold to Germans off until the military build up on the otherside of the river and when the Russian Winter comes that would been of the time for Soviets to counter-attack. I suspose the only good thing about the Sixth Army not doing the street fighting is that they would of been able to be supplied properly, however it would only be an amount of time until a great a defeat is inflicted upon them with the weather playing a part also.

Sometimes what amazes me is how the Russians managed to build some tanks that were resistant to the cold weather, while most German tanks all froze up or couldn't even shoot with most equipment frozen and damaged by the cold weather!!

[Abendstern]

I suspose the only good thing about the Sixth Army not doing the street fighting is that they would of been able to be supplied properly, however it would only be an amount of time until a great a defeat is inflicted upon them with the weather playing a part also.

A great defeat like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mars

[Tiberios]

Then you "Not one step Backwards" strategy by Stalin would of been enough to hold to Germans off until the military build up on the otherside of the river and when the Russian Winter comes that would been of the time for Soviets to counter-attack.

They would, atleast until their food supplies ran out. Even winter couldn't have saved the Soviet soldiers from starving if the Germans could keep them surrounded. Like Operation Mars, the Germans, had they just surrounded Stalingrad, might have been able to repell a russian winter offensive. Besides, the main success of the russian winter offensive was achieved because they struck orimeraly Hungarian, Italian and Romanian units, who although being competent, were too ill equipped to fight a Russian force of that size.

I suspose the only good thing about the Sixth Army not doing the street fighting is that they would of been able to be supplied properly, however it would only be an amount of time until a great a defeat is inflicted upon them with the weather playing a part also.

Exactly, which is the main point really. The Sixth Army would have suffered significantly less casualties and have been more better supplied. It would then have been a force that would have been much more capable of resisting the Russian offensive in the winter.

Sometimes what amazes me is how the Russians managed to build some tanks that were resistant to the cold weather, while most German tanks all froze up or couldn't even shoot with most equipment frozen and damaged by the cold weather!!

I would say that this was just a result of being accustomed to such harsh weather conditions, which the Germans were not.

[Nikitn]

hitler should have ordered "not one step back".

He did it in Moscow and Stalingrad.

For the people saying one could "just encircle" the city: You realize that crossing the river Volga would make for another, huge battle the Germans simply couldn't win?

PS. Stalingrad was a huge industrial centre, and along with Leningrad and Moscow, the most important city for communications. Taking it would be very important.

[Lysimachos11]

The Sixth Army could have been saved on numerous occasions, at earlier stages by simply pulling out in a tactical withdrawal. Later when the encirclement was happening and when it was in place in the early stages, German units outside the Kessel and the 6th Army could have made contact and extricate. Hitler decided the Sixth Army would fight to the death however, as he did not want to accept defeat and he hoped to repeat the miracle at Moscow. There Hitler issued similar orders to hold positions and he saved the German Army.

[Axeman]

The original idea was the 6th army would use the banks of the Volga and encircle the western end of the city and then move down the Volga towards the Caspian eventually.

If you have that and a decisive victory at bashanta further south, then you may very well have a successful Fall Bleu

[hellheaven1987]

The original idea was the 6th army would use the banks of the Volga and encircle the western end of the city and then move down the Volga towards the Caspian eventually.

No, it was never the idea; several commanders, including Kleist, persuded Hitler that was impossible and it was dropped from the plan.

The plan was to held Volga as a defensive line against potential Russian attack; the sacrifice of 6th Army, in respect, saved those in Caucasus by providing minimum time for retreating. Without sacrifice 6th Army, it was very possible that bulk of Caucasus force would be cut off and captured - even greater lost than the lost of 6th Army.

[jackwei]

The original idea was the 6th army would use the banks of the Volga and encircle the western end of the city and then move down the Volga towards the Caspian eventually.

If you have that and a decisive victory at bashanta further south, then you may very well have a successful Fall Bleu

Took too long about it though and when the winter came it was over for the sixth army since they wasn't equipped well enough or prepared for this type of streetfighting, wasn't even ready for the winter either that made things even worse.

I didn't understand why under-equipped allies were put on the flanks and the soo called National Socialist spirit would made them resist any attack by the enemy???

Hmm i've wonder whether paratroopers and the 4th panzer army would of done a good job capturing the oilfields in the south prehaps, since i am sure the Luftwafte would of been capable of doing this or would of the weather played a bad role against that???

Warfare had changed soooo much that sieges of cities never happened usually nor were modern troops of the day trained to take part in such streetfighting on a huge scale, that played apart in damaging the sixth army despite controlling up the 90% of the city at one point.

[Monarchist]

The point of Hitler's ridiculous plan was to capture Stalingrad in the north, not as an objective unto itself, but as a protective wall against Soviet counter-offensives south of Stalingrad. You see, the entire point of Operation Blue, initially, was to cross the southern half of the Don River, not the eastern bend which points to Stalingrad. Having crossed, elements of the Sixth Army (and other armies) were to continue due-south along the Black Sea coast. They were to strike north of what is now Georgia, and take the Baku oilfields, then Baku itself. The problem with this was the gigantic ring of defenses which had been erected around that city - several dozen concentric trench lines, if I remember correctly.

Once Hitler realized that the drive to Baku would take far too long, and the defenses were too strong, he suddenly shifted the plan, as he did so very often in Russia. Instead of Stalingrad acting as a wall to stop Soviet reinforcements from reaching Baku via the Volga River and Caspian Sea, he made it the very focal point of the attack. Of course, surrounding cities had worked well for him before, yet it had taken many months to do anything. Kiev, Brest-Litovsk, and several other cities took months to fall to a conventional blitzkrieg siege. The problem was that they could easily out-maneuver the Russians, but once it came to a city with streets blocked by rubble, it simply became another case of First World War-esque attrition. When you challenge Russians to a war of attrition, you've lost before beginning.

Stalingrad was actually dangerously close to falling to 6. Armee around this time of the year in 1942. Between Sept. 15 (a day when the Central Train Station was taken and re-taken 15 times by both forces, ending up in German hands) and Nov. 21, 1942, the Germans had basically taken 90% of the entire city. The forces of Soviet Russia had basically been reduced to a few streets, squares, and alleyways before the eastern docklands on the Volga. The problem for von Paulus (German commander of 6. Armee) was that the moment any Germans showed their faces on the docklands, the Russians pounded them into atoms with artillery from across the great Volga. It was really quite stupid that Hitler decided to switch from Baku to Stalingrad, then from surrounding Stalingrad to directly entering Stalingrad. It's almost as if he wanted to lose.

[Nik]

The main problem was the lack of any clear war winning strategy after the failure of barbarossa (and it did not fail before moscow, but on the dnjeper line, when the red army continued falling back instead of just being shattered to pieces as envision by the german planners).
Even after the stabilisation of the winter front, the german general staff and hitler had no realistic plan to beat the russians. Fall Blau was aimed at capturing raw material sources, but the distances to march and the flanks to protect were simply to large to be protected by the weakend german army and its allies. Even if Baku would have been taken, a revitalized red army would have had ample chances to beat the russian, never mind that the dilution of army group south from stalingrad to the caucasus made taking anything an undertaking with a high chance of failure, and in the case of failure, a high chance of catastrophic losses.

I didn't understand why under-equipped allies were put on the flanks and the soo called National Socialist spirit would made them resist any attack by the enemy???

The german staff was aware of the shortcommings of its allies (although measure were taken comperatively late), but the wehrmacht simply lacked the strength to protect its own flanks.

Hmm i've wonder whether paratroopers and the 4th panzer army would of done a good job capturing the oilfields in the south prehaps, since i am sure the Luftwafte would of been capable of doing this or would of the weather played a bad role against that???

4th army already had a clear task, forming the the northern pincer and supporting the 6th army on its wolga advance, its redeployment and the logistical problems it caused slowed down both the advance of the sixth army and the advance towards the caucasus.
Why would the Luftwaffe be able to secure the oilfields on its own?
Large scale airborne operations where out of the question as the 7th Airdivision was still in the ropes after crete.