Fog of War

[maroule]

First off, since it's the first time I post here, let me warmly congratulate the makers of this mod (and of the RR sub mod). In short, your work is outstanding.

I had to pay for it (i.e I had to buy the 4 campaigns extension / okay, at a hugely discounted pice, but still), and I am a very happy customer. The overall quality is absolutely outstanding, on par in scope and ambition with the Rome Total Realism (a former favorite of mine in the category of "slightly over-reaching but superb mods") and it is superior to it in so far as it had to work around the constraints of a specific lore. Some square pegs couldn't be fitted in the round holes (unique units, etc) but some choices (like the Mordor pope calling crusades) are really inspired.

So thanks a bunch. I've been playing three campaigns so far, Gondor on VH/VH (which I dropped after 60 turns, couldn't fight Harad who cut through my underbelly) Rohan on VH/VH on vanilla (great fun, victory, took ages to subdue Mordor's trolls, though / I feel I cheated a little bit, since I rushed Saruman, which is contrary to the spirit of the book). I'm now on Elrond on H/VH with RR mod (I went down a notch on the campaign difficulty to have more money / ). This sub mod is great in terms of pitting small troops of elite soldiers against screaming masses, just the way I like it, and very auspicious to role play your calmpaign (I give a lot of my conquered regions back to allies).


Now to my point about fog of war.

- It's not specific to the mod, but the starting position of factions in terms of geographic knowledge is absurd. It is certainly mind boggling to think that Elrond, the arch-erudite of ME, who knew every minor legend since the first age, starts the game without knowing where Minas Tirith, Kazad Dum or Barad-dur is on the map... I can understand that most of Harad or Khun, or some "new" towns like Edoras might not have such a high profile, but most factions should start with a map where most of the cities are already correctly located.

- Alliances. Again it might be hard coded so impossible to change, but I would say that once you get an alliance, you should be able to see what your allies see. It's kind of killing my role playing campaign; I'm saving the sylan elves, giving them regions by the truck load, and I'm still completely blind to what they see on the other side of the forst. The only way out is to spam spies like rabbits, and their cost seems too high to me (the ers are eating caviar everyday or way). Actually, maybe cutting the price of spies to 50 or 30 per turn would go in the right direction (but then disactivate their ability to open castle doors)

[Obliterate76]

You gotta remember that this is a game and not a 100 percent true-to-the-book game. They try and keep things in common but its only a mod. If what your saying was done, then Mordor would have a unique view of ME and so would Isenguard. So no, that would not be the way to go with this game

[Jean=A=Luc]

Now to my point about fog of war.

- It's not specific to the mod, but the starting position of factions in terms of geographic knowledge is absurd. It is certainly mind boggling to think that Elrond, the arch-erudite of ME, who knew every minor legend since the first age, starts the game without knowing where Minas Tirith, Kazad Dum or Barad-dur is on the map... I can understand that most of Harad or Khun, or some "new" towns like Edoras might not have such a high profile, but most factions should start with a map where most of the cities are already correctly located.

Well, it's mostly a vanilla thing, I'm not sure if it could be arranged for factions to start with certain areas already explored. Maybe some script could be made to reveal certain portions of the map that make sense for the given faction.

- Alliances. Again it might be hard coded so impossible to change, but I would say that once you get an alliance, you should be able to see what your allies see. It's kind of killing my role playing campaign; I'm saving the sylan elves, giving them regions by the truck load, and I'm still completely blind to what they see on the other side of the forst. The only way out is to spam spies like rabbits, and their cost seems too high to me (the ers are eating caviar everyday or way). Actually, maybe cutting the price of spies to 50 or 30 per turn would go in the right direction (but then disactivate their ability to open castle doors)

You can always exchange map information. Though that won't really solve the FoW problem.

Try to think of it this way. Even though they're your allies they're still a separate people and you can't really know what's going on with them without being physically present there. In a "medieval" setting communications is typically achieved by messangers who take days, weeks and months to travel from one point to another so two kings sitting in their castles hundreds of miles away typically have no idea what the other is doing or what's happening in his domain unless he sends a scout/messenger and even than acquiring info takes a long time.

There are the palantiri of course but that's another matter that maybe could be achieved via a script.

Shared vision makes more sense in games with a higher tech level where they can make use of spy satelites, unmanned flying drones, phones, planes, the internet or any other means of fast communication.

[Withwnar]

There's always the toggle_fow command if you're not opposed to 'cheating'.

[Bela]

IMO you should 1. use your diplomats exchanging map information regularly, or 2. use toggle_fow cheat if you want to see all. (anyway there is truth in your words, but the engine has limits also)

Hehe... J=A=L and Withwnar was quicker.. (my boss was standing next to me in the last 20 minutes)

[maroule]

thanks for your answers!

Now, in order:

Obliterate76, I fail to grasp the interest of what you are saying, except that it's a game. Try to grasp this groundbreaking idea; it's not because "it's a game" that we should stop thinking of ways to make it more logicall/realistic/or simply more interesting. That's the whole idea of modding.

Actually, your seemingly absurd point of having Mordor see the whole map is an excellent idea.

On Palantiri; that would be an interested avenue to explore, for Mordor obviously, partially for Isengard, and with stronger limitations for Gondor. Palantiri-less as they seemed to be, the elves always seemed extremely well informed in the book, as did Gandalf.

Obviously, JL, W and K, as you guessed, I would never cheat with the FOW revealed, or with anything else. I was already ashamed enough by rushing Isengard as Rohan, which felt like raping the feeble minded AI.

I exchange maps on a regular basis, but it gives the current borders, not what happens inside. Besides, some deals are pretty steep to swallow when you're buying.

Good point about the communication system of the age. That said, there was however always a lot of information exchanged (in the medieval world , so probably in any fantasy realm as well) from travellers, merchants, etc. and a flurry of gossips which allowed Parisians in the middle ages to hear about what the "Grand Turk" was doing (and certainly to be able to place Istanbul on the map). No nation or king was ever so blind as the ones when get at the starting point (and again this is a reflection on MTW2 even more than on this mod). For ME, it gives the shallow impression that the world was created 5 minutes ago, rather than 3 ages ago.

All that being said, keep up the good work.

[Twist of Cain]

Actually, your seemingly absurd point of having Mordor see the whole map is an excellent idea.

On Palantiri; that would be an interested avenue to explore, for Mordor obviously, partially for Isengard, and with stronger limitations for Gondor. Palantiri-less as they seemed to be, the elves always seemed extremely well informed in the book, as did Gandalf.

Cost reduction on spies seems fair enough, though again, you would want to keep them from being too powerful vs. gates. One point I've brought up, too, is the map size and that agents, like spies, need more movement points as well... this sort of ties in to the whole matter.

I exchange maps on a regular basis, but it gives the current borders, not what happens inside. Besides, some deals are pretty steep to swallow when you're buying.

Good point about the communication system of the age.

I have to agree on this point: if you're allied with someone, they should be practically shoving map information down your throat. How else could you help them?

[FriendoftheDork]

Yeah I agree that at least capitol cities should be known to all factions. However, this was not a time of total revelation in the Third Age. At this point, Sauron had not yet revealed himself fully, Elrond's Rivendell was a safe heaven concealed by his magic, Eriador was hardly a realm at all and thus no meaningful capitol at all, and the lands of Harad and Rhûn was pretty much unknown to most good factions (Umbar as an exception).

I wouldn't really mind that all factions started with full maps of the world though, which could later be updated by exchanging maps as normal, and keeping fog of war as normal. In all TW games I strive to get maps from all factions as that makes the minmap alot more beutiful and I like to see the borders properly, which isn't always the case when just using spies.

A palantiri submod would be nice, which would enable vision of a single faction at a time, although Saruman's and Gondor's would be locked on evil factions. I have no idea how it could be implemented though. At best I could suggest it being an ancillary like the rings, giving a huge line of sight of the unit, bonus to ambushing... hmm what else? Discount on agent training cost?

[Twist of Cain]

Oh, if I'm playing RC submod, and with orcs, I will sometimes use skirmishers as substitute scouts, since they're dirt cheap and expendable... placing them on fords and bridges is a pretty decent early warning system, until I can get the foot-bound orc generals around to building watch towers.

[maroule]

yes, I used to do that as well as rohan
get a unit reduced to less than 5 soldiers (happens when you consolidate them), and spread them round the map, hidden in forests... sometimes I had them "ambush" inadvertantly mush bigger armies, and getting pasted as a results, but a lot cheaper than spies.

I agree with FriendoftheDork on quite a few cities being unknown at the time, that's why I was only mentionning the bigger ones, "the historical sites" if you will

[korgraz]

Good point about the communication system of the age. That said, there was however always a lot of information exchanged (in the medieval world , so probably in any fantasy realm as well) from travellers, merchants, etc. and a flurry of gossips which allowed Parisians in the middle ages to hear about what the "Grand Turk" was doing (and certainly to be able to place Istanbul on the map). No nation or king was ever so blind as the ones when get at the starting point (and again this is a reflection on MTW2 even more than on this mod). For ME, it gives the shallow impression that the world was created 5 minutes ago, rather than 3 ages ago.

Some interesting ideas but in my opinion informations about allies/foreign lands are more limited than you think.
1. the alliances in middle-earth weren´t as close as you described. Mostly forged for one battle and for some economical profit. This is even more true for alliances between different races. Elves/dwarves/Men/Hobbits they all mistrusted eachother. Some "modern" people like Elrond, Maiar Gandalf, Bilbo or some merchants could see the importance of friendship and teamwork but they were a minority.
Even alliances between the same races like silvan and "High"-elves and Gondor/Rohan weren`t very close except for war again.
And they would certainly never report the status of their troops to an ally ervery month or year. Even in the contemplation of utter destruction the revealing of such vital informations is a big thing and not easily given

2. after the great plague almost all borderlands in the south are deserted and even the economy in a nation alone (like Gondor) is reduced to an minimum. The Northwest is totally abandoned except some small regions. The elves ony leave thier "nations" only to move to the west. Hobbits that leave the shire are known freaks. In third age the information between nations is strongly reduced. The best and only information system in middle-earth are the spies of Saruman in the shire/north, they alone could provide
the wizard with more or less "realtime" informations.

I agree to your thoughts about seeing the capitals of every nation at the beginning. on the otherhand are embassies not known in middle-earth and even with fog of war "on" you see the hole map and you can guess where exactly Minas Tirith lies. So there is definitly some knowledge about the world but it is not as accurat as it could be.
Just think of Elrond bend over an very/very old map pointing at Kazad-Dum and saying: I know Kazad-Dum must be here, but the knowledge about the Elven entrance got lost. Let us send some armies to reclaim the lands once lost to the enemy.

[Obliterate76]

What I was trying to say maroule, is most of the community would be opposed to this for one reason. It is something they are not use to. I understand were you are coming from and yes, it does make sense that one of the oldest people of ME should know quite a lot about his surrondings lol. I for one am agreeing with you and like your idea, the only thing, is how will other people like it? I'll back u with it though.

[maroule]

I'm not hell bent on it, the few ideas I threw around are more suggestions or avenues of thoughts, let's say... and for a sub-mod rather than the core model

I agree with Kograz about the fact that the third age is really a time of decline and retranchment, so that hobbits became a legend, for example, so that doesn't go in the direction of accurate geographic knowledge. However, to name an example, at least a few of the factions knew where Rivendell was... so that Gimli, Legolas, Boromir made it there...

Since I couldn't mod a file if my life depended on it, could an expert modder here tell me if my idea is feasible/easy:
- cut the expenses of a spy from 100 to 30 (probably fairly easy)
- suppress their ability to open gates

cheers!

[Twist of Cain]

- cut the expenses of a spy from 100 to 30 (probably fairly easy)
- suppress their ability to open gates

I'm not an expert, but the first point would be feasible and easy, the second point too - but only if you cut their ability to succeed at any mission. I'm not sure it's possible to make them poor specifically at one thing or not. That would still make them better for just running around the map, looking at things.

Edit: Since you can add agents, you could differentiate and allow recruitments of Spies just as before, but allow the recruitment of "Scouts" more easily, with just those changes. Crappy at all subterfuge, regardless of points, but cheap upkeep and useful to, well, scout. ...Actually, I'm not sure you could differentiate between the two to make one good at opening gates and the other not. Maybe a "scout" could just have a -10 trait to subterfuge.

[maroule]

I didn't know you could invent agents! that has been fairly under-used in mods, no?
If so, yes, a "scout" would be great, same as spy, but without ability to open or ability to foil assassinate missions

[Twist of Cain]

I didn't know you could invent agents! that has been fairly under-used in mods, no?
If so, yes, a "scout" would be great, same as spy, but without ability to open or ability to foil assassinate missions

I think you'd have to use an existing type, since the limit is 12 agent types and they're all used... also, not sure how well it would work, since certain things seem to be hardcoded functions... but it might be possible to take an unused type like princesses or witches, change their stats and remove their other functions.

Edit: Making a 10-man cavalry type military unit might be an easier solution to making a "scout", especially if their line of sight could be increased. The AI would have to have a disincentive to recruit them, or you might see ridiculous stacks of 20 10-man units.

Edit 2: And nevermind about the agents, they're hard-coded too much to allow that much change, it seems

[FriendoftheDork]

BTW why is there no princesses in this mod? They were rare enough in vanilla as it was (compared to MTW 1). Just have the evil factions be of an incompatible religion shoud prevent Sauron giving away his daughter

At least if there was a way to limit marriages between races (aragorn/arwen being a big exception), I see no reason why there couldn't be marriages of convenience, at least the Gondorian royalty did marry for politics, even married a Black Numenôrean into the royal familly. The Kin Strife of Gondor stemmed from the royal marriage between Numenorean and northman.

[Withwnar]

There's a thread on Princesses.

I like both of these Scout ideas. If as a unit then would it be necessary to decrease their likelihood of desertion? Could be wrong but I thought that that single units with few men were more likely to desert.

On the Palantiri line of thought: Lorien had Galadriel's Mirror. Not the same thing of course because it also showed past and future, plus couldn't be told where to look (I think).

[maroule]

I like the idea about scouts, but as you said, there are possible loopholes, and god knows what the idiotic Ai would do with it. As things stand, I will continue consilidating my units, esp cavalery, and when they fall to 5, I'll use them as scouts.

Now coming back to an earlier (and very valid) point from Jean-Luc:

" In a "medieval" setting communications is typically achieved by messangers who take days, weeks and months to travel from one point to another so two kings sitting in their castles hundreds of miles away typically have no idea what the other is doing or what's happening in his domain unless he sends a scout/messenger and even than acquiring info takes a long time."

... it means the current system of FOW is still way too permissive, because this limitation is general, not reduced to inter-faction communication; if I have an elf scout at Edoras fall (as I do), the rest of my empire as far as the Grey Havens or Rivendell sees what he sees, and can act upon it... while in reality this scout would see stuff (be it an orc army in the vincinity) and have send a courrier ride back hard for the nearest unit, which would then send another courrier to the nearest, etc. which means that by the time Elrond receives the news of the orc army, weeks have passed and the orcs have moved on...

of course that's simply neat-picking, it can't really be implemented, and there comes a time when realism gets in the way of simple fun...


I bought ents for the first time yesterday... oh, the joy... they're pretty nimble, they move faster than I thought (but then again all units, even burdened with 50kg of armor and weapons, run like usain bolt)

does anybody now how much time has to pass for a second unit to be available for recruitment (in RR)

[Twist of Cain]

" In a "medieval" setting communications is typically achieved by messangers who take days, weeks and months to travel from one point to another so two kings sitting in their castles hundreds of miles away typically have no idea what the other is doing or what's happening in his domain unless he sends a scout/messenger and even than acquiring info takes a long time."

Keep in mind there is a difference between "What is King Bob doing on the 17th for lunch," and "Have there been invasions or large troop movements around King Bob's castle?" People travel, people talk, taverns are good places to hear such talk, even if you're not that close. If a huge army is mobilizing, or a city is being sieged, word spreads. Sure, a messenger is the best and fastest way to get accurate information, but it's not like people were totally in the dark all the time. Without any messengers, spies, that mobilized army just might make it to your borders before the word spreads, but likely your allies on the border would hear about it soon enough on their own.

No, we definitely still don't get enough information on what is going on around us. The real flaw lies in how long it takes - there should be a delay. (Of course, consider the scale too - it shouldn't take years and years, a turn is already 2 months, 6 months, depending on the mod...)