Strongest Iberian faction

[tomsandalon]

Which of the iberian faction is the stongest overall (units, campaign map position, etc...)
In my opinion the Moors are the strongest overall because:
1. They can summon reinforcement from Africa
2. Their economic is the most stable because of the "backup cities" in Africa
Yes, I know that it's hard without a good armour but there are more good things than bad...

Come on tell us what you think

(First post ever in this forum, by the way, Im sorry about my poor grammar skills and misspelling, Im from Israel)

[PedroL]

That depends. Yes the Almohads are strong but they are divided in tribes (Al-Andalus and the Berberes)

Castille and Leon are strong, Aragon too they have reinforcement from Europe (France)
Portugal in the beggining are week, but with a strong need of Independence. They were reinforcement from the Crusaders (Lisboa, Santarem, Loule, Silves), form different militaru orders and from moçoarabes (christan people in muslim control),Portugal was the first country in the Iberia where the templares appear. The Count Henrique (From Borgonhe) the father of D. Afonso Henriques was family of Bernard of Claraval. That's why he send the templars first to Portugal. .

[tomsandalon]

Castille and Leon are strong, Aragon too they have reinforcement from Europe (France)
.

Aragon can't use the reinforcement from france because if you got a castle in france, you're probably at war with her or in danger of being betrayed by her...

[PedroL]

Aragon can't use the reinforcement from france because if you got a castle in france, you're probably at war with her or in danger of being betrayed by her...

The Historical facts is that when Aragon was at war against the almohads they received reinforcements from france.

[gta_140]

The Historical facts is that when Aragon was at war against the almohads they received reinforcements from france.

That's cool, but I think he was asking from a gameplay point rather than a historical one.

I always do the best with Leon-Castille by making lots of jinites and such. I would say Moors are the strongest, but once they start crusading you it's a real pain.

[PedroL]

well gameplay, Portugal too is strong. Only have to be allied to Castille and Leon and fight agaist the moors.

[TheBromgrev]

Depends on how the campaign goes. The Moors' main advantage is their strong starting position and economy. If you can take out one of the three Iberian kingdoms quickly, before they get their armored units, then you're pretty much set. I go for Portugal first, because there's no danger of being attacked from behind by France, Genoa, or Sicily, although I find Aragon to be weaker. Late Moorish units are good enough that you can reliably win against France and Sicily, but their early units aren't very good and will quickly lose to the early swordsmen. The other three are pretty much the same in the early campaign and are much more of a challenge in the beginning. However, the AI isn't very good, so you'll have a good chance of surviving long enough to get your armored units, and from there you can easily kick out the Moors. For Late-era games I prefer Castille-Leon, because they seem to have a slightly better unit roster than their neighbors.

Hope that helps.

[Warmaster Tibs]

Gameplay wise I say Aragon is the best. They have a strong military and special knightly order with AP. They have a great starting position and can expand in any direction.

[TheBromgrev]

Then you turn on them afterward!

[PedroL]

Then you turn on them afterward!

in gameplay. He ask me an opinion. please

[RollingWave]

gameplay wise the Moors roster in SS is pretty crap, they seriously need to play a lot better than their oppenents to have a real chance. espically after the intial stages. There are some real confusing aspects of the roster, such as the Andruisian infantries avalible as mercs that are clearly muslim Moors units but for some inexplicable reason can't be build by Moors, (but they are A LOT better than any Moors spearman except MAYBE the Latumas.)

The Moors starting position is better though. so the key would be to hold the fort and out hoard your enemy and then take them out one by one. rely VERY HEAVILY on those javlin cavs in the field. (but the sad part is, your oppenets all get Jinets too )

In truth, SS didn't do a a very good job with the Moors roster, they added a lot of cool units to the other Iberian factions while adding almost no units (save the laughablly bad/barely better than peasants schimtar infantry) while still generally toned down the Moor's strength in SS.

As prove, SS 6.1 have exactly 40 different recruitable non-ship units for Spain, 37 for Portugal, 41(!) for Aragon. and it has only 32 for the moors. and the only new "unique" units they got was the horrendous Bedouin infantry. not to meantion the extreme repetitiveness of most of their early units. for example, they have *5* different forms of light spearman, Aragon have... *1* ( and even counting pikeman, they have 3)

When I played the moors, I have basically 1 usable strategy in 80% of the game phase a army that's made up of almost entirely of A. desert archers B. seige engines (particularly Magonels) C. Jinets D. whatever garbage spearman you can pull together, need to hire a lot of mercs to really stand a chance usually. The idea is basically to lure them all into a Magonel death trap and finish them off with DAs, and assasinate their heavy cavs with Jinets. this is a horrifically diffcult strategy to pull if the AI weren't completely idiots and spread out enough to avoid the rain of fire. and it only works in the field. (since you can't win battles on the wall with this build up)

These rants have been around before, but not a whole lot have happened since (a few mini mods that few people took notice have tried to address this ) the Moors should have a better roster that make more sense then it does not. where it has a lot of garbage and some non garbage units that their Iberian counterparts also have.. oh and desert archers. the Moors have way too many redundent light spear units on a already short roster (there are shorter onces , but those are either horse archer factions that really doesn't need anything else, or the Irish, or the Teutonic Knights) they have a couple of good melee infantry but they come pretty late. and their cavalries are generally less than inspiring.

SS have done a very good job, but I have said this for awhile and will continue to, they need to look more seriously into their muslim faction rosters.

[Caesar Clivus]

Rollingwave, if the state of the Muslim rosters bothers you that badly, then why not start a submod to update them?

[PerXX]

Atleast in PB's latest mod, they've been given several units, such as Urban Militia - a rather decent swordsman unit, available in cities(!) Middle Eastern Heavy Spearmen and Archers, Moorish Auxilleries, a ArmorPiercing axeunit, also available in cities - they're around the same strenght as Viking Raiders. They also get some horsearchers nobles like the turkish Sipathis, possible more as I haven't played them yet.

[Tyrenia]

As far as the Early Period goes, I would say that the Moors beat all other Iberian factions hands down. Their starting position is infinitely better than the others, and the Early period unit rosters for the Christian factions stink (unless you like javelin units, which I don't, too much micromanagement).

That said, late period, I would pick Leon-Castille. Spain's late period roster is quite good, and although not exactly to my playing style, it can certainly be used to good effect. Their starting position is also much better in the late perios, thus funds are not so hard to come by as they are early with this faction. You are in a good position to crush the Moors or Aragon early and access their rich trading ports.

But I don't really like Portugal, they are like a weaker version of Spain with a worse starting position. And I haven't yet played as Aragon, but I think that they would be better than Portugal (their starting position is quite good), but I don't know how long they would last against Spain and the Moors.

Just my opinion though...

[meese]

RollingWave, the way I see it, the Muslim rosters in general are really quite interesting compared to the typical heavily armoured knights of the Christians

As for the Moors, perhaps they did have a bit too many spear units but from what I've seen, that's largely been fixed with the inclusion of those units PerXX mentioned. To be honest, I don't really know why you think an army of desert archers, jinetes and spears is any less diverse than an army of cavalry archers. You've also forgotten to mention the arab cavalry which are really quite good for light (I think) cavalry and have a decent charge of 9 which is more than most muslim cavalry.

The way I see it, you're playing the Moors with a Western Army mindset - heavy cavalry, heavy infantry - instead of looking more towards light units (both mounted and dismounted) mixed with many archers and spears to combat the enemy cavalry.


Anyway, strongest Iberian faction? Hard to say - as the only Muslims in the area, the Moors always seem to have a tough time (A.I. controlled) against the other three especially when an alliance is formed. If not, they steamroll the place. In terms of the roster, I'd have to agree with the majority and say Leon-Castille, but Camel Gunners are darned useful.

[Tyrenia]

Camel Gunners are darned useful.

Agreed

[RollingWave]

I havn't played the new RC update yet so I'm not sure, I'm talking based on mostly 6.1 experience. I'm not playing with a western mind set otherwise the Moors early roster (before they get urbans and christians) is nearly impossible. my grudge is that as a light cav faction, they don't really have any light cavs THAT THEIR RIVAL DOESN'T HAVE! . Their early game key is Jinets and DAs, DAs are kinda unique (except that Egypt gest them too) but ALL your early foes have Jinets as well, in fact they have BETTER javlin units than you!

They're the only muslim faction that doesn't get a early horse archer (or any horse archer for that matter, in 6.1 anywa. they have a mounted crossbow later and the camel gunners though) which is seriously crippling. since the best way to win without going western style would be HAs.

Using their army, you still can't seriously seige an enemy without mass mercs. (again, I'm mostly talking about the early aspects. where you have to take the Iberian without most of your higher level units like Urban milita and Christian guards). but your field capacity is no where near as potent as that of a mass horse archer army. you still have to rely heavily on infantries, except that yours completely suck, your archers is better than theirs, but your javlin they also have, and they beat the crap out of you in melee cav. (one of the things that made no sense was to take arab cavs out of the city roster, oh yeah like it's actually a much better unit than milita cavalry!)

so you lose in EVERY aspect except having a slighly better archer unit. which, unlike horse archers, can't not win the battles by itself . it still needs heavy support. support that is vastly inferior to your opponents at best.

The Moors advantage in history was supposedly light cavs and crossbows, neither is apparent in SS, sure they have saharen cavs but that's the same thing as jinet minus armor. their crossbows got nerfed as well, their christian counterpart basically have better in both!

I guess I'll give the new RC a try though

[Point Blank]

You will like the Fari Noble Cavalry (elite Moorish HA), and their crossbow units have boosted replacement rates (all factions have unit type strengths with boosted rates, and weaknesses with reduced rates - boosted is double the rate of reduced). The Faris also have boosted rates, and you can really hurt the clumsy early western heavy cav with them. Plus the Christian Guard is quite available. In later years the ME Heavy Spearmen and Archers hold up quite well, as mentioned.

[gta_140]

You will like the Fari Noble Cavalry (elite Moorish HA), and their crossbow units have boosted replacement rates (all factions have unit type strengths with boosted rates, and weaknesses with reduced rates - boosted is double the rate of reduced). The Faris also have boosted rates, and you can really hurt the clumsy early western heavy cav with them. Plus the Christian Guard is quite available. In later years the ME Heavy Spearmen and Archers hold up quite well, as mentioned.

PointBlank, your so awesome it hurts!

[Badg3r]

Portugal has the best unit roster but over all i'd say Castille Leon