The Bosnian faction

[Bosnian_King]

Bosnia already is a faction in the Tzardoms total war thread. Will it be possible to include the Bosnian state and kingdom in this mod also? Some screenshots from the Tzardoms MOD:

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This are the bosnian banners. On the left the banners of the state and on the right the banners of the different noble families.:

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Some info:

Bosnia was mentioned in 958 as a smaal mountain state. Tilll 1180 bosnia did not managed to become a strong and stable country and totaly independent of Hungaria. The Bosnian ban Kulin wrote a clear letter to Dubrovnik which all the more important historians as well as historians from Harvard and Oxford recognize as a proof that Bosnia was independent by 1180, because Bosnia had her own foreign politic.

By 1390. Bosnia was the biggest country of the Balkan. Bosnia had her own church which the Bosnian kings called more than once "the bosnian faith".

I have a lot of books which discuss the middle ages of Bosnia. Books of Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian profesors. If you need help for the research of Bosnia I am ready to help. I have written a lot at the Tzardoms mod threads and if you will include Bosnia I will be happy to help you. This is the teritory of the Bosnian state according to euroatlas from 958 till 1500:

958:

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1100:

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1200

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1300

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1400

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1500

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This is a more detailed map of the Bosnian borders of the Bosnian ban Kulin 1180-1204. The most historians agree that Bosnia was an independent and stable country from this ruler and further. Before this ruler bosnia tried to fight of the Hungarians but withoud succes. Because of that Bosnia was not totally independent from Hungaria before the bosnian ruler Kulin.

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The Bosnian kingdom during the strongest Bosnian king Tvrtko I Kotromanic. In this time Bosnia had a very strong army. The bosnian king entered an open war with Hungaria and had his own fleet of which is own son was the admiral:

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[pwf224]

1) Bosnia on those maps looks fairly small and non-influential. There are much better candidates for new factions than Bosnia, although I would support a submod adding in a slavic faction that includes Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, etc.

2) We are currently out of faction slots. No new factions can be added unless one is taken away. I can say with 100% certainty that dave won't remove any of the current factions.



However, if you want to pursue this idea, try and get someone to make a submod for you. It would be a very in-depth submod since I assume new units (we are also close to, if not at the maximum number of units) will have to be added and banners and skins, although with permission from Tzardoms Total War the work could be made easier. Or you could attempt to do the conversion on your own.

I know dave will not remove a current faction in favor of a Bosnian one, unfortunately. There is hope if a submod get's made, or if you have the time, patience, and skill required to mod your own KGCM files and create a Bosnian state. Either way, good luck. I'm interested in seeing if this idea goes anywhere and would like to test out a submod with a Bosnian faction if one does get made.

[Bosnian_King]

1) Bosnia on those maps looks fairly small and non-influential. There are much better candidates for new factions than Bosnia, although I would support a submod adding in a slavic faction that includes Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, etc.

2) We are currently out of faction slots. No new factions can be added unless one is taken away. I can say with 100% certainty that dave won't remove any of the current factions.



However, if you want to pursue this idea, try and get someone to make a submod for you. It would be a very in-depth submod since I assume new units (we are also close to, if not at the maximum number of units) will have to be added and banners and skins, although with permission from Tzardoms Total War the work could be made easier. Or you could attempt to do the conversion on your own.

I know dave will not remove a current faction in favor of a Bosnian one, unfortunately. There is hope if a submod get's made, or if you have the time, patience, and skill required to mod your own KGCM files and create a Bosnian state. Either way, good luck. I'm interested in seeing if this idea goes anywhere and would like to test out a submod with a Bosnian faction if one does get made.

Thank you for your reply. Only it would be nice if you could look at this:

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This is the Bosnian kingdom 1377-1390 I think this kingdom was powerful enough because it was the only kingdom together with Serbia which did not become a Hungarian vazal state. Croatia became a vazal state of Hungaria in the 11 century already and remained this. Isn't this teritory big enough?

[pwf224]

Yes this territory is big enough. The time is the late 1300's though, and this mod starts in 1180, with most players not even getting to 1300. There is currently a side project that focuses on a later time period though, so this might get some consideration for that.

[Bosnian_King]

Yes this territory is big enough. The time is the late 1300's though, and this mod starts in 1180, with most players not even getting to 1300. There is currently a side project that focuses on a later time period though, so this might get some consideration for that.

Ok great. I understand that Bosnia is too small in 1180. But please let me know when this second project which focuses on a later time period will be discussed. Send me a private message if you can. I am sure that I will be able to help and to answer every question, because I do have enough literature and I know a lot historians who can help.

Only I want to say that Bosnia, altough she was a small country by 1180, she was an interesting country; because this country had her own church. Look at the Tzardoms MOD. All the other factions in that MOD are Catholic, Muslim or Orthodox christiann, but only Bosnia had her own Bosnian church which was considered heretic by the pope. So Bosnia can be interesting despite its size...

[Bosnian_King]

Yes this territory is big enough. The time is the late 1300's though, and this mod starts in 1180, with most players not even getting to 1300. There is currently a side project that focuses on a later time period though, so this might get some consideration for that.

And where can i see this side project?

[pwf224]

It's a private project and is not available on the forums. Even I don't have access to it

[Frunk]

Hey there,

I think even if Dave were to add any custom factions (custom as in ones that don't appear in some form in either the vanilla Grand Campaign or vanilla Kingdoms campaigns), there would be a number that would feature ahead of Bosnia. No offence.

Might I suggest, however, you make yourself a KGCM submod? You don't even have to ask Dave, as far as I know (it still would be courteous to ask, and if you're going to release it I would recommend asking permission first, as you would have to post it in the Submods sub-forum here - the alternative is keeping it for yourself, of course).

Cheers, Reece.

[Dave Scarface]

Hi Bosnian King,

If I were to consider adding new factions to KGCM Age of Discovery, I would have to admit Bosnia is not the first faction I would want to add, no offense. In my view the following factions would add more to the campaign: Crown of Bohemia, Burgundy, or a North American indian faction. And then there are more contenders which would of course include factions like Bosnia and Georgia. Thanks for sharing your ideas here.

Dave

[Bosnian_King]

Hi Bosnian King,

If I were to consider adding new factions to KGCM Age of Discovery, I would have to admit Bosnia is not the first faction I would want to add, no offense. In my view the following factions would add more to the campaign: Crown of Bohemia, Burgundy, or a North American indian faction. And then there are more contenders which would of course include factions like Bosnia and Georgia. Thanks for sharing your ideas here.

Dave

Bosnia is interesting because of her church. Bosnia was not an military might like Hungaria, France etc. but it had her own church which was not Catholic and not orthodox christian. Only Bosnia and England in europe managed to have their own church as a state church without reach of the pope or Byzantium. Why was this like that? That was because only Bosnia and England were that isolated.

Further Bosnia became a mighty kingdom during the reign of Tvrtko I Kotromanic, the first Bosnian king. In that time Bosnia was a military power in that region. Tvrtko was the first king in the balkans who introduces firearms. The Bosnian medieval army was the first army of the balkans with guns. Further Bosnia conquered whole the Adriatic sea except of Istria and Tvrtko established a Bosnian navy. This situation of Bosnian military greatnest lasted for about 2 centuries only. But despite of that Bosnia could be a very interesting faction because of her Bosnian church and the "Gradnfather of the Bosnian church" some kind of Bosnian pope. There are written documents from the 14. century which write about the fact that France Kattars visited bosnia frequently to teach the learning of the bosnian chirch. Bosnia was the center of the non- catholic christianity in europe.

[Bosnian_King]

Hey there,

I think even if Dave were to add any custom factions (custom as in ones that don't appear in some form in either the vanilla Grand Campaign or vanilla Kingdoms campaigns), there would be a number that would feature ahead of Bosnia. No offence.

Might I suggest, however, you make yourself a KGCM submod? You don't even have to ask Dave, as far as I know (it still would be courteous to ask, and if you're going to release it I would recommend asking permission first, as you would have to post it in the Submods sub-forum here - the alternative is keeping it for yourself, of course).

Cheers, Reece.

Croatia was from the 11. century and further in a personal union with Hungaria. That means that there did not exist an independent Croatian state. A Croatian state existed in the 9 and 10. century.

Albania did not exist as a Kingdom, ever. They were part of the Byzantese empire, later they fell in the hands of the Otomans relatively early.

In the middle ages balkan and in the period which this mod is about there were only three factions in that part of europe:

1) The Hungarian kingdom- or the"Hungaro-Croatian kingdom" but in practice it was an Hungarian kingdom with a Croatia as vazal state more than a true union. You can ask Croatians on this forum

2) The Serbian kingdom and the Serbian Tzardom

3) The Bosnian Banate and the Bosnian kingdom.

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If you do not believe me then you can have a look at euroatlas or ask at the Tzardoms forum. Ask them why they did not include Croatia and Albania.

[Frunk]

Croatia was from the 11. century and further in a personal union with Hungaria. That means that there did not exist an independent Croatian state. A Croatian state existed in the 9 and 10. century.

Albania did not exist as a Kingdom, ever. They were part of the Byzantese empire, later they fell in the hands of the Otomans relatively early.

In the middle ages balkan and in the period which this mod is about there were only three factions in that part of europe:

1) The Hungarian kingdom- or the"Hungaro-Croatian kingdom" but in practice it was an Hungarian kingdom with a Croatia as vazal state more than a true union. You can ask Croatians on this forum

2) The Serbian kingdom and the Serbian Tzardom

3) The Bosnian Banate and the Bosnian kingdom.

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If you do not believe me then you can have a look at euroatlas or ask at the Tzardoms forum. Ask them why they did not include Croatia and Albania.

Nowhere in my post did I imply in the slightest that Bosnia was not in that time period a unique and substantial entity, nor for that matter did I suggest that Dave instead add Croatia, Albania or Serbia to the game, so I don't understand why you're bringing them up and trying to give me a history lesson when it won't change my mind.

I said, despite the facts of their resilience against outside entities and religions, they are not, keeping in mind the limited amount of factions that can possibly be included in the game, substantial enough to have their own place in this game in my opinion.

It is a fact that in that section of the map there are already many factions: Hungary, Venice, the Papacy, the Byzantines and Sicily. There is no need to have another faction in that area when France, for example, doesn't have nearly enough enemies for that faction to be overly challenging (once you've united France you can seize Milan's provinces, pick at the HRE and/or England, both of whom become weak very easily, and dominate trade and military), thus, as Dave said, Burgundy is the highest priority if another faction is to be added to the game at all.

[Dave Scarface]

Nowhere in my post did I imply in the slightest that Bosnia was not in that time period a unique and substantial entity, nor for that matter did I suggest that Dave instead add Croatia, Albania or Serbia to the game, so I don't understand why you're bringing them up and trying to give me a history lesson when it won't change my mind.

I said, despite the facts of their resilience against outside entities and religions, they are not, keeping in mind the limited amount of factions that can possibly be included in the game, substantial enough to have their own place in this game in my opinion.

It is a fact that in that section of the map there are already many factions: Hungary, Venice, the Papacy, the Byzantines and Sicily. There is no need to have another faction in that area when France, for example, doesn't have nearly enough enemies for that faction to be overly challenging (once you've united France you can seize Milan's provinces, pick at the HRE and/or England, both of whom become weak very easily, and dominate trade and military), thus, as Dave said, Burgundy is the highest priority if another faction is to be added to the game at all.

Great post! you said it really well, there are more than enough factions in this sector already. Not to mention that if I added Bosnia then I would have to add at least 1 more settlement to this region. Atm I only have free map space for 4 more regions. And they could be put to much better use elsewhere to fix map pathfinding issues on Bigmap, or save them for an extended America. Glad that you can see the bigger picture here mate

Dave

[Incontinenta Buttox]

Burgundy!! What a good idea. I am surprised it's not already in the mod.

[Dave Scarface]

The reason is simple, Burgundy cannot even be considered as a faction in 1180 AD. However in 1400 AD its a different story, Burgundy is much more important.

[Frunk]

The reason is simple, Burgundy cannot even be considered as a faction in 1180 AD. However in 1400 AD its a different story, Burgundy is much more important.

Ah, of course. I've had my mind set on AOD too much recently. Still, a faction to truly rival the French and spice up that region is what I meant.

[Darviathar]

Any idea what existing factions are going to go the way of the dodo in this new mod?

I certainly hope it starts early enough to give Byzantium a chance to survive (i.e. before 1453)

As for more factions in the Balkans neighborhood, Serbia and Bulgaria certainly had a far greater influence on affairs there than Bosnia ever did. I cannot imagine a Bosnian faction being included unless those two were already in, and in that case the area would be as crowded as northern Italy already is.

[Dave Scarface]

Any idea what existing factions are going to go the way of the dodo in this new mod?

Kingdom of Jerusalem, Antioch, and Norway.

I certainly hope it starts early enough to give Byzantium a chance to survive (i.e. before 1453)

The campaign start date is 1400 AD, starting regions held by the Byzantine Empire are as follows Constantinople, Corinth, Athens, Trebizond and Kerkyra.

As for more factions in the Balkans neighborhood, Serbia and Bulgaria certainly had a far greater influence on affairs there than Bosnia ever did. I cannot imagine a Bosnian faction being included unless those two were already in, and in that case the area would be as crowded as northern Italy already is.

No new factions in the Balkans as stated above.

Dave

[Incontinenta Buttox]

No doubt that's true. I don't really know how united France was at around 1180.

[Grislok]

So endeth the Bosnian Faction thread odyssey?