New Resources?

[Caligula Caesar]

Taking a look in descr_sm_resources gives me the following list:
gold - fine
silver - fine
pottery - did the ancients trade pottery?
furs - completely unused
grain - completely unused due to hardcoded side-effects
timber - no complains, though it doesn't seem to be present much in Gaul and Germania...
iron - fine
olive_oil - fine
wines - fine (the Romans liked their wine )
slaves - present in every settlement for some strange hardcoded effect which takes place when a faction enslaves a region
glass - no complaints, except for the fact that it isn't very widespread at all and I don't get what determines which regions have it and which not
marble - no complaints, except for the fact that it isn't very widespread either - does anyone know where it should be found?
textiles - wouldn't each region produce its own textiles (not that I know much about it)? Or is this meant to be fancy clothes, in which case it should be renamed nad redistributed, because I somehow doubt the Britons exported fancy costumes
purple_dye - no complaints, but shouldn't it be widespread throughout the Punic regions?
incense - fine
silk - fine
wild_animals - used, but I have never heard of the ancient wild animals trade
hides - not sure what that's meant to represent either
tin - fine
copper - fine
lead - fine
amber - fine
elephants - not tradeable; used in EDB to mark out the recruitment of Numidian cavalry and elephants - can't hidden resources do the same?
camels - present in descr_regions but untreadeable and not used in EDB
pigs - completely unused
dogs - used as grain

Can't furs, elephants, camels and pigs at least (not sure about the others) be used for other resources? For instance, I can think of salt, Indian spices (to boost India trade-wise), and some other things I can't think of at the moment. My writing has to but cut short here as I have to go - but what do you think? Does anyone have any suggestions?

Edit: Maybe a horses resource?

[Quinn Inuit]

pottery - did the ancients trade pottery?

I'm pretty sure they did. Not positive, and I might be thinking of American Indians.

furs - completely unused

Really? We have a "furs" visible resource?

timber - no complains, though it doesn't seem to be present much in Gaul and Germania...

High on my to-do list is replacing the coastal_forest HR with the Timber R. That should will add it to Gaul and Germania.

glass - no complaints, except for the fact that it isn't very widespread at all and I don't get what determines which regions have it and which not

Me, neither. I didn't even know there was a glass R.

marble - no complaints, except for the fact that it isn't very widespread either - does anyone know where it should be found?

Besides Sicily and Greece, no.

textiles - wouldn't each region produce its own textiles (not that I know much about it)? Or is this meant to be fancy clothes, in which case it should be renamed nad redistributed, because I somehow doubt the Britons exported fancy costumes

You'd think, but I'm sure there's some reason it's in here.

purple_dye - no complaints, but shouldn't it be widespread throughout the Punic regions?

I think this is one that I actually did go over and try to limit it to areas where that mollusk lives.

wild_animals - used, but I have never heard of the ancient wild animals trade

The Romans imported some for games, and others imported them for menageries. Couldn't have been a major trade item, though. I mean, how many ostriches do you really need?

hides - not sure what that's meant to represent either

Probably fine animal skins from various places.

elephants - not tradeable; used in EDB to mark out the recruitment of Numidian cavalry and elephants - can't hidden resources do the same?

Numidian cavalry? Oh, yeah, I remember being surprised about that one.

I recommend leaving that as-is, since it helps players figure out where you can recruit elephant units.

camels - present in descr_regions but untreadeable and not used in EDB

I discovered that by accident a few days ago, and I intend to fix it in the next ExRM version. Shouldn't be too hard. I'm going to limit all of the camel units.

pigs - completely unused

Can't furs, elephants, camels and pigs at least (not sure about the others) be used for other resources? For instance, I can think of salt, Indian spices (to boost India trade-wise), and some other things I can't think of at the moment. My writing has to but cut short here as I have to go - but what do you think? Does anyone have any suggestions?

Edit: Maybe a horses resource?[/QUOTE]

I would _love_ a horses resource, as I'm sure you can imagine. I like your salt and spices idea, too.

[Caligula Caesar]

Really? We have a "furs" visible resource?

Perhaps, but I can say for certain that the resource known as "furs" to the game isn't present in any region.

Me, neither. I didn't even know there was a glass R.

Well, we will have to find someone who knows, but based on wikipedia, I think it should be a little more widespread and found in the bigger cities.

Besides Sicily and Greece, no.

Strange, since I checked and found it in Asia Minor. EB have it in parts of Iberia!

I think this is one that I actually did go over and try to limit it to areas where that mollusk lives.

Fair enough, though silk is found beyond India.

The Romans imported some for games, and others imported them for menageries. Couldn't have been a major trade item, though. I mean, how many ostriches do you really need?

Well, it isn't worth much as a trade resource. Now that I look at the placement of it, it makes sense (except for the fact it is also in Gepidae!)

Probably fine animal skins from various places.

Actually, I think its so the barbarians have something to trade

Numidian cavalry? Oh, yeah, I remember being surprised about that one.

I recommend leaving that as-is, since it helps players figure out where you can recruit elephant units.

Mhm. Maybe

I discovered that by accident a few days ago, and I intend to fix it in the next ExRM version. Shouldn't be too hard. I'm going to limit all of the camel units.

Can you just use a hidden resource for camel units? It would make more sense to put in a horse one if you are going to restrict the horse recruitment. Otherwise no one will know where they can recruit horses, and I think people recruit more horses than camels

I would _love_ a horses resource, as I'm sure you can imagine. I like your salt and spices idea, too.

I don't know where all salt would be found, but I have heard it was quite valuable.

[Quinn Inuit]

Perhaps, but I can say for certain that the resource known as "furs" to the game isn't present in any region.

Interesting. Want to double it with the hides resource in Europe? That might help the barbarians make more money.

Well, we will have to find someone who knows, but based on wikipedia, I think {glass} should be a little more widespread and found in the bigger cities.

Ok. There's got to be a book about glassmaking in the ancient world out there somewhere.

Strange, since I checked and found it in Asia Minor. EB have it in parts of Iberia!

Not sure what to make of that. Guess that's going to have to go on the list of things to research, too.

Fair enough, though silk is found beyond India.

I was discussing this with Muizer awhile ago, and he pointed out that what we think of as the Silk Road was, historians now believe, more of a set of interconnected regional trade networks. Therefore, it makes sense that you'd have silk resources dotted all along the silk road area.

Well, it isn't worth much as a trade resource. Now that I look at the placement of it, it makes sense (except for the fact it is also in Gepidae!)

Yeah, I doubt people went up there much for wild animals. Then again, maybe they would have if they had controlled it. Since it's so cheap, might as well just leave it up there.

Mhm. Maybe

If nothing else, it's one less thing you have to do with hidden resources.

Can you just use a hidden resource for camel units? It would make more sense to put in a horse one if you are going to restrict the horse recruitment. Otherwise no one will know where they can recruit horses, and I think people recruit more horses than camels

True, but why not a resource for both?

I don't know where all salt would be found, but I have heard it was quite valuable.

Oh, it still is in some parts of the world. That's yet another thing that should probably be researched.

And if anyone makes the Morton's Salt girl the strat map icon for salt, I'm going to hit them.

[Quinn Inuit]

Thread-surrection!

As discussed in the fish thread, we're going to be adding salt and fish. As not discussed in the same thread, I'll be needing three more resources for farm income and one or two more for horses (maybe). For the record, here's what's on the chopping block:

pigs => fish
furs => salt
grain => horses (these won't be traded and therefore won't trigger the grain bug--I know horses could be traded, but I don't think they were as important as the other trade goods listed)
lead (was this really that important?) => farming 1
glass (again, doesn't seem that important) => farming 2
wild animals (replace with hides) => farming 3

Edit: Alternatively, if everyone feels strongly about trading horses, then I'll swap grain for lead or something, since the farming resources won't be trade-able.

And, for the record, the grain resource in-game will be different from farming resources, since the former represents the trade value of grain and the latter the production of grain locally.

[Carados]

grain => horses (these won't be traded and therefore won't trigger the grain bug--I know horses could be traded, but I don't think they were as important as the other trade goods listed)

Problem.

It still triggers the population growth.

[Wambat]

I do know a bit about salt in the ancient world. Its importance in the ancient economy would have ranked below the trade of grain (has that been eliminated in game) but at least on par with precious metals; in many local economies it was used as a standard of trade where precious metals where not available in adequate quantities.

One thing that should be represented is herd animal resources that were an important trade resource for the nomadic tribes of North Africa, the Arabian iinterior and, especially, the central Eurasian plains. Perhaps the pig or wild animals could be used for that could be used for that?

[Caesar Augustus]

I would be hesitant about making cavalry only recruitable in areas where the horse resource (yes, I am amused that it rhymes haha) is present. Purely for gameplay reasons. Why not just have the higher tier cavalry units recruitable in areas where the resource is present?

I have to say, I disagree about the wild animal trade being a small thing. Purely because the Romans had a bit of a passion for holding games, as we all know. So I'd imagine there was quite a bit of money involved?

[Carados]

Animals would've been a small thing I imagine. Something only for the seriously wealthy or for games. The hides would probably be more valuble for a number of reasons including status

Look at me! I have a tiger pelt! I must be super strong to have killed one of these!

wealth

Look at you! You have gold! Buy this super rare pelt and you can display your prestiege to all!

or simply because you don't have to feed a dead animal

Kitty! Food!
*5 hours later*
Kitty! You still haven't eaten your food!

They could also be used for food as well.

[Quinn Inuit]

The trade for games is notable, but I doubt it was a massive economic thing.

The trade in herd animals is definitely something to consider...what would we use to represent that? A cow? That might actually be a fine replacement for the hides slot, actually. It covers the same areas that have hides/wild animals now, and is IMO much more well-grounded historically.

Cavalry won't only be recruitable in those horse areas. Certain types of light cav will be recruitable anywhere. It's actually going to be pretty complicated, but I've done a good deal of research and I think it will be a much more accurate gaming experience.

Grain isn't going away as a trade resource. I probably should've been more specific about that. The grain to which I'm referring up there is the internal name of the resource, which I believe is hard-coded. Our current grain is actually dogs as far as the game is concerned, as noted by the OP and as referenced in the mouseover text.

[Wambat]

Perhaps the horse resource could be used to represent areas where husbandry had produced the extraordinary breeds required for extraordinary units such as the cataphracts. (These cataphracts, BTW, are OMG hard to kill in the open, yikes!)

I think it can be assumed that any province can have access to non-exceptional breeds for lighter cavalry units either locally or through markets. If certain factions should have restricted access to basic Calvary units, then their recruitment could be dependent upon some rank of marketplace.

[Caesar Augustus]

It would be pretty useful to limit how widely available elite cavalry units are, and would fit even better into the whole AOR thing.

[Caligula Caesar]

Lead was quite important - the Britons exported it literally all over the (western) world! Can't the last three be hidden_resources?

[Carados]

Yeah, there was a serious network of lead mines or something in the south-east I believe.

Is an Indian/African elephant distinction worth putting in??

[pannonian]

Yeah, there was a serious network of lead mines or something in the south-east I believe.

The tin mines of Cornwall. Tin is a relatively rare, but essential, ingredient in bronze.

[Irenaeus]

The tin mines of Cornwall. Tin is a relatively rare, but essential, ingredient in bronze.

This is where the legend of Jesus visiting Britain comes from (i.e. the poem/song "Jerusalem"), due to Joseph of Arimathea supposedly being a tin merchant. Wiki has quite bit to say about tin in the Cornwall area of Britain, including that this was the reason the Romans invaded Britain (citing Emsley).

pottery - did the ancients trade pottery?

Britain certainly imported pottery from Gaul, every time Time Team dig up somewhere Roman in Britain they seem to find Samian Ware that was imported from France.

[Quinn Inuit]

You can also make bronze with arsenic, but it was inferior and left you with a lot of lame smiths. (Archetypes gotta start somewhere.)

We can handle the African/Indian distinction with a hidden resource, but I think it is worth putting in there.

The three farming resources can be hidden, but that'll make it harder for players to tell where the rich farmlands are. I was hoping to make it visible at a glance. Hmmm...I suppose we could use one visible and simply put 1-3 villages in, instead of using three different visibles for that.

[Caligula Caesar]

Yeah, since then I've found that the Babylonians traded pottery quite a lot as well.

[Quinn Inuit]

Babylonians in our time period or the early ones?

Also, I just discovered in Strabo that Drangiana had salt, as well. (I was reading up the Carmanians, whom I'd like to add as an AOR unit.)

I guess what we could do is delineate farming levels by having one village, two villages, or two villages and dogs/grain. That would allow us to get away with only using one hidden resource for it.

[Caligula Caesar]

Both, I guess...