phalanx to weak?

**Teutonic Joe** · October 02, 2009, 09:36 AM

I am not sure if this is how it is supposed to be but the phalanx units seem rather buggy and ineffective. Some phalanx units seem to face the wrong direction at the worse time possible in combat, the phalanx swap to swords rather fast, the ranks dont attack when they should (like 2 out of the some 20 guys in the front are stabbing, and cavalry being unscathed when launching stupid frontal assaults. According to basic understanding, when a cavalry unit runs head on into waiting point spears, they shouldn't just stop! Realistically, and regardless of what unit, if someone charges head on and they are on top of a unarmored horse, then they should shiskabob themselves since the spears are rather pointy.

**Stilgar CG** · October 02, 2009, 12:47 PM

Phalanx is pretty well represented in DTW. Pointing the wrong direction is RTW bug. It isn't that easy to use phalanx units effectively, but in DTW you can certainly rely on phalangists.

There are a few well-known tips on using phalanx units (if you are interested):
- phalanx need time to reform, march them carefully, so they are not caught by a charge while being on the move; if this happens, they might loose formation and will get slaughtered
- keep them 4-6 rangs deep
- use the phalanx line as one large unit; therefore, try to avoid giving them attack order, just march them close to the enemy and let the enemy engage;
- when on defence put them in guard position mode, as soon as phalanx is engaged switch to "at ease" and they will fight more effectively without loosing formation,

etc.

**death to the romans** · October 02, 2009, 01:21 PM

never break the phalanx line, and guard the flanks very wel(sp?)

**jakobh94** · October 03, 2009, 02:27 AM

You pretty much said what ME said but in smaller words

**RedFox** · October 03, 2009, 08:26 AM

Just remember these simple rules:

- If your phalanx gets surrounded -> they die.
- If phalanx is in Guard Mode -> they don't push forward.
- If you give every phalanx unit a different attack command -> there will be gaps in your formation.
- If there are gaps in your phalanx formation -> they get surrounded.

The rest is up to you. I'd recommend grouping phalanx together into a single solid line and marching it forward in unison.

**Pelopidas_Of_Thebes** · October 03, 2009, 08:28 AM

They face the wrong direction when fighting if your turn Guard Mode off. Just reform them with the mouse in front of the enemy, or click attack to the direction of the enemy again. It takes a bit of getting used to, to master the phalanx, but it will eventually fell solid and fluent.

**Teutonic Joe** · October 03, 2009, 11:15 AM

well my main concern was that a cavarly unit charged the front of the phalanx and maybe....4 died...while the others kinda just stuck there then eventually evaded the horde of spears and started to attack my lines...it just feels weird...really weird

**Stilgar CG** · October 03, 2009, 03:19 PM

4 of how many? What unit size do you play? If cavalry charges in a compact formation in 4-5 ranks, than only first row will feel the sarissa's and will die. If cavalry charges under an angle, their casualties might be minor.

**Teutonic Joe** · October 03, 2009, 04:29 PM

realistically wont all of them die if they stop while in stabbing range? The unit size isnt that big...maybe normal or one up....i just think doin something has stupid as not using cavalry to flank phalanxes should be punished by watching all the cavalry die horribly....then again maybe the true issue is that the whole unit doesnt really fight...from the looks of it some spears remain motionless and prevent units from moving while others attack and kill things. is that supposed to happen?

**RedFox** · October 03, 2009, 05:24 PM

It's really hard to balance this, Teutonic Joe. If we make the cavalry die easily on pikes, then they die just as easy in melee. I guess someone has to come up with a better idea on how to balance it - maybe just give phalanx units an insane anti-cavalry bonus.

**Teutonic Joe** · October 03, 2009, 09:20 PM

how does it make cavalry weaker overall when its just the main counter for them is spears....if cavalry attack from the flanks then the phalanx would be forced to use swords thus negating any bonuses they have vs cavalry...then again cavalry due seem to die when attacking the flanks and rear for no apparent reason anyways. maybe that could be removed as well.

**jakobh94** · October 04, 2009, 01:53 AM

Well, a phalanx in RTW can turn their spears around so the cavalry would get slaughtered faster and then then the phalanx would turn to fight the first enemy. So no insane bonus for Phalanxes. Maybe just a small one, that doesn't boost very much.

**Stilgar CG** · October 04, 2009, 03:15 AM

Cavalry should not charge into sarissas. Howver, those crazy cavalry charges (mostly by general bodyguards) still take place due to faulty AI. Other cavalry units often charge flank or rear of phalanx and naturally cause quite some casualties: phalanx is quite vulnerable when hit on flanks or in the rear. So, I agree, there is no need to give phlanx units any crazy unti-cavalry bonuses, cause it will introduce another disbalance in the game.

**RedFox** · October 04, 2009, 05:39 PM

Teutonic Joe: Since you seem to be such an expert on this matter, why don't you have a go at it?

Code:

type             greek pezhetairoi
dictionary       greek_pezhetairoi_pikemen      ; Pezhetairoi
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          greek_pezhetairoi_v2, 60, 0, 1.5, 0.3
officer          greek_medium_officer
officer          greek_standard
officer          greek_musician
attributes       sea_faring, very_hardy, hide_forest, can_sap
formation        1, 1, 2, 2, 6, square, phalanx
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         22, 18, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 10, 0.4
stat_pri_attr    spear, long_pike, spear_bonus_6
stat_sec         16, 18, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 10, 0.6
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  14, 28, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      -7, 0, -10, 0
stat_mental      16, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 5
stat_fire_delay  40000
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1420, 480, 60, 120, 1020
ownership        macedon, carthage, seleucid, slavs, thrace

Code:

type             greek heavy cavalry
dictionary       greek_heavy_cavalry      ; Diadochi Allied Cavalry
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          greek_heavy_cavalry, 20, 0, 1, 0.3
officer          greek_standard
officer          greek_musician
mount            heavy horse
mount_effect     elephant -13, camel -7
attributes       sea_faring, very_hardy, hide_forest
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         22, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 10, 0.66
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         19, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 10, 0.66
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  15, 32, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  6, 5, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, -10, 0
stat_mental      14, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 25
stat_fire_delay  -300000
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1120, 440, 120, 240, 1020
ownership        macedon, slavs, carthage, seleucid

Happy balancing.

**Teutonic Joe** · October 04, 2009, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by RedFox

Teutonic Joe: Since you seem to be such an expert on this matter, why don't you have a go at it?

Code:

type             greek pezhetairoi
dictionary       greek_pezhetairoi_pikemen      ; Pezhetairoi
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          greek_pezhetairoi_v2, 60, 0, 1.5, 0.3
officer          greek_medium_officer
officer          greek_standard
officer          greek_musician
attributes       sea_faring, very_hardy, hide_forest, can_sap
formation        1, 1, 2, 2, 6, square, phalanx
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         22, 18, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 10, 0.4
stat_pri_attr    spear, long_pike, spear_bonus_6
stat_sec         16, 18, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 10, 0.6
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  14, 28, 7, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      -7, 0, -10, 0
stat_mental      16, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 5
stat_fire_delay  40000
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1420, 480, 60, 120, 1020
ownership        macedon, carthage, seleucid, slavs, thrace

Code:

type             greek heavy cavalry
dictionary       greek_heavy_cavalry      ; Diadochi Allied Cavalry
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          greek_heavy_cavalry, 20, 0, 1, 0.3
officer          greek_standard
officer          greek_musician
mount            heavy horse
mount_effect     elephant -13, camel -7
attributes       sea_faring, very_hardy, hide_forest
formation        1.5, 4, 3, 6, 3, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         22, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 10, 0.66
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         19, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 10, 0.66
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  15, 32, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  6, 5, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, -10, 0
stat_mental      14, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 25
stat_fire_delay  -300000
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1120, 440, 120, 240, 1020
ownership        macedon, slavs, carthage, seleucid

Happy balancing.

i dont consider flashing your genius as a viable tactic.
i was just speaking from the view of what should logically happen, but since logic creates imbalance (and since others gave better arguments then this grand stand), i relent and say it would create a imbalance regardless if it seems logically annoying.

**Cal20** · October 05, 2009, 06:18 AM

I would much rather have the finely balanced phalanx units of DTW (which are the main unit of the game so I think they have a lot of care and attention put into balancing). Rather than the stupid indestructible walls of death that RTW Vanilla presents them as. Fair enough some cavalry don't insta-die from hitting the wall of spears and manage to get through, but don't you think this makes it even more of a challenge. Some how I am sure IRL some cavalry would make it past the sarissas and into the packed ranks.

**Teutonic Joe** · October 06, 2009, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Cal20

I would much rather have the finely balanced phalanx units of DTW (which are the main unit of the game so I think they have a lot of care and attention put into balancing). Rather than the stupid indestructible walls of death that RTW Vanilla presents them as. Fair enough some cavalry don't insta-die from hitting the wall of spears and manage to get through, but don't you think this makes it even more of a challenge. Some how I am sure IRL some cavalry would make it past the sarissas and into the packed ranks.

i prefer logic and this mod has a lot of realistic elements since units don't go hurdling through the air like they used to and now fall like they should when cavalry impact them.

I just feel urked whenever i hear the "Cause the AI will do..." as a reason...although i guess its unavoidable...although i will say i noticed the BAI split its army into two wings and attack my army which was cool.

Invincible vanilla phalanx...well i hardly ever lose to those phalanxes in vanilla RTW so i dont really know what you are complaining about since lawl-tastic urbans are worse. Sorry, but i dont consider them invincible since i have broken up spartan blobs in the past and greek players hiding in the corners.

**RedFox** · October 05, 2009, 08:13 AM

I might be able to improve it by tweaking the spear_bonus_* stat. In theory it should improve the chances of cavalry dying on impact greatly, without affecting unit stats. However, the biggest culprit here is the lethality value.

**alexandrosIII** · October 06, 2009, 09:28 AM

i think there fine. owned rome in first turn with epirus but thats in the wide open. sieges different story. using them to storm cities had them keep turning on me but switching in and out of defenive mod at certain times helped somewhat. i like how they are in this mod more historical. i guess if you use them for your main offense you'll have problems they take alot to get use to. if you order them to attack blocks of men they'll ruin your day but marching them into lines they seem fine they hold the line and slowly kill while my mercs and cav win the day. but maybe they do need a boost vs cav there a little weak there. roman cavarly do a fair job head on against me. the cavarly all die against my phalanx but too many die then you'd think would. just my 2 cents. but a side note is it me or are missle units to strong. my ranged units seem to own the roman legions when i flank with them then most other mods. to a point where its almost not fair to my enemy!!!