Economics Package

[Augustus Lucifer]

This thread will be used to develop the Economics Package for AUH. A similar setup to the one being developed by GED and Mim will be used, but obviously it will differentiate in places as well. There's some things I want more complex and others I might omit. Anyways.

This thread should also be used to discuss and research the overall economy for the game. This includes primarily:

Resources

• Natural resources which can be represented as trade map resources, and their comparative values.
• The manufacturing of resources by means of mines or other processing plant
• Locations of resources on the map in each region
• Note - There's a maximum number of ~26 map visible resources, so we need the most important ones.
• Note - Further resources can be represented through 'hidden resources' and give additional benefits to buildings in regions which have them.

Trade

• The types of trade that was engaged in, and for what commodities.
• Land routes which pass through settlements, as well as where their primary hubs are located.
• Sea routes which pass through ports, including sea routes which go off-map such as to India, Arabia, or Indonesia.

Farming & Pastoralism

• The regions where farming would be possible, pastoralism would be possible, both would be possible, and both would be possible providing some innovation(please state what that may be).
• The factions predisposed to both, and the effects of both, as well as the effects of a hybrid system.
• Productivity capacities of each region, Value of 2-6; 2 = very low farming/growth, 3 = average farming/growth, 4 = good farming/growth 5 = exceptional farming/growth, 6 = magnificent farming/growth
• Note - Prouductivity determines population growth in a settlement without regards to farms/pastures which increase it and taxes which decrease it. 3 and 4 is the average range in Vanilla. Some regions range down to 2 that are less productive. Only areas like Antioch and the Fertile Crescent get up to 5. Only a couple regions on the entire map should be 6.

Innovations

• Technological innovations, ala the Marian Reforms in Rome, or the invention of the Cotton Gin, which could conceivably have happened in our area during our time period and made elements of the economy more productive, or open up new economic options.
• Any technological innovations which historically happened during our time period should be mentioned and included, but those which historically happened later or are more of a 'what-if' are also viable if they're explored properly.
• Note - Technologies are 'researched' by the player, with a cost value for research and a % chance of success or failure. It might also be interesting to base this % chance on the current year, and only enable some technologies by year.

[RollingWave]

Building Name: Paper money distribution center, Jiao Zi Guang
Cultures Allowed: East Asian
Factions Allowed: Song / Jin / Da Li
Requirements: large markets
Capabilities: improve trade 10%
Construction Time: 3
Settlement Level: large city
Cost: (Cost in Gold to build this building)
Material: (Wooden or Stone)
Picture: (optional, what the building should look like, descriptive or visual)
Other Info: The Song was the first state in the world to use paper money extensively. although it was still at least partially used more as a banknote concept than a true money system. it was still a major breakthrough. By this period. neighboring states were also begining to use the paper money system and a major breakthrough in commerce.

[Augustus Lucifer]

So paper money is something I'd put in under:

The manufacturing of resources by means of mines or other processing plant

In terms of resources it would obviously need 'timber' or a similar resource in the region to be viable. I'm not entirely sure all of what went into the pressing of early paper money. We could also potentially tie this in as an 'innovation' in the technology system, to allow other factions to develop paper money systems and possibly to refine the process. I'd think a key economic aspect to paper money, above and beyond the actual creation of it, is the switch to a representative money system from commodity or bartering economies. The possibility of credit institutions is also there for the more developed nations economically.

Here's an interesting article on Chinese money.

[Augustus Lucifer]

To get some discussion going on resources, here's a few general resources. The easiest method for resources is to come up with a list, then just knock one off every time we get a better one.

Silk
Horses
Grain (or Rice?)
Timber
Fish
Livestock
Iron
Luxury Goods (simpler than choosing any one iteration)

Remember trade resources don't necessarily need to be things that are mined or cultivated, they can also be the product of refining and crafting. Some things merit buildings to supplement them which increases their value, but 'Luxury Goods' for instance being present in a region just means they have the preexisting means to produce them.

[Yelü Dashi]

Ones I am pretty sure about:

Rice
Charcoal
Tea
Oil
Paper
Bamboo
Hemp
Horses
Ceramics
Jade
Fur
Camels
Elephants
Gold
Slaves
Textiles

Potentials:

wine
sulphur ?
stone
saltpetre
oranges
salt
steel
cattle (same as livestock ?)
waterwheels ?

[Eisberg]

Ones I am pretty sure about:

Rice
Charcoal
Tea
Oil
Paper
Bamboo
Hemp
Horses
Ceramics
Jade
Fur
Camels
Elephants
Gold
Slaves
Textiles

Potentials:

wine
sulphur ?
stone
saltpetre
oranges
salt
steel
cattle (same as livestock ?)
waterwheels ?

+ Chinese Lackwares

[RollingWave]

I'm not entirely sure if paper money should work like a mine, because while paper was a commodity, it was a fairly common one and the quantity required to produce paper money (since it wasn't exactly super high circulation during the song, only merchants used it) isn't high. it was more like an administration problem than a production one

[Augustus Lucifer]

That's another possibility is determining an 'economic system' for each faction. Some could be more locked, a different but equal system, whereas others might be direct evolutions in kind and could be advanced. Things like...

Primary source of sustenance (pastoralism, farming, fishery)
State of Currency (barter, commodity money, representative money, representative money w/ credit)
Manner of trade (freeform, regulated, business, centralized)

etc.

I think it's important we have a respectable economic model, rather than just a set of buildings which add +1 or +2 to one of about three things.

We'll also be trying to use some of the tenets set out by the incomplete Economic Package. I'll go into that more when I get a chance to really sit down with it and start drawing it up, since it's pretty complex and was left at a precarious time.

[RollingWave]

Looking more closely, Paper Currency only seem to be been distributed in the Song (though Kubla Khan did it also when he establish the Yuan dynasty) so it would make more sense that the Song would be able to do this almost right from the start. while other factions might have the potential to do it later on . ( is this codable?)

I'm not quiet sure what representative money and representative money with credit differs in, in most cases. more advanced states have coins made out of cheaper metals like coppers. and the Song had limited paper money distribution which I guess is the credit concept?

How would we really work this though? a different level of building besides market that offsets income? But that doesn't seem quiet right, since it's more of a central administration problem, for example the Song had copper coins everywhere but needed some extra work in getting paper money, where as the Mongols would start out with commodity trading.

So in concept, it seems that a more reasonable model would be a system that ties both central administration (for example. the level of palace might effect this) that opens up the options to distribute higher level of money. for example a top level palace allows paper money distribution buildings to be built in your realm if you have the req buildings?

Is this scriptable? and can we tie other things into it ? like the need to own X amount of province or X amount of large cities to build?

What you purpose sounds incrediablly interesting, though I can't quiet grasp how we can turn this into a game concept.

My theory would be that, the moduel of currency in use is directly tied with the level of administration in the capital, for example. a nomadic faction like the Mongols, would be at the very basic level, so it would be basic commidity trading. where as a more basic government would allow valuable metal currency trade, and a sophisticated one would allow representative currency, and the most sophisiticed onces would allow paper currency.

This would be pretty cool, since it would

A. make the lost of capitals that much more painful, and the prospect of a welll developed nation moving capitals almost impossible.

B. make more much more interesting tech trees and playing moduels.

The upgrade of the capital's palace should cost A TON, which would reflect the general difficulty of such tasks, however you can take over OTHER PEOPLE'S CAPITAL, if they are more sophisticed than yours then you can use it. which would properly represent how the Mongols went from nomadic tribes to one of the most sophisticed empire on earth in under 50 years.

Other factors to consider.

The Jin dynasty used a "multiple captial system" so we should take that into account, IIRC their capitals are (modern day) KaiFeng (Bian Jing), Beijing (called Yian Jing or Zhong Du) , Harbin (Hui Ning Fu, it's actually a bit off Harbin but the old city is gone and the closest modern city is Harbin) Da Tong (it was called Da Dong Fu), Ning Cheng county (by far the smallest of the modern day cities is the Jin's northern captial Da Ding Fu) and Liao Yiang (was also called Liao Yang fu then)


So I guess this is the general concept? first we tie it into the level of government, say 4 level for everyone (though might be called differently)

level 1: nomads like Mongols and maybe Tibetans start with this, it has no other revenue bonuses.

level 2: lesser governments (need research to figure out who) starts with this, allow basic level upgrade of valuable currency circulation in all areas that meet the req, a modest bonus to revenue

level 3: sophisticated governments (probably most fall between 2 and 3, we need more precise research to find out though): allow the upgrade to representative coinages, a fairly large revenue bonus (should be nearly all encompasing on trade / tax etc.. )

level 4: very sophisticated government: most likely only the Song start out with this, though the Jin might have the potential to upgrade to this after a while, where others will take a long time to do this. allow the distribution of paper money, which would be a large revenue bonus to all (though carry the risk of higher chance of riots due to inflation control issues?)

And then we can tie this to the unit recruitment differences of each faction. which would be most interesting, for example the Mongol native units cost little to recruit / maintain but have very low spawn rate. so they don't need much of an economy to put together a good army but they won't have much of an good economy until they start taking major cities anyway. however their rate of army growth will be low, so they must use their army wisely, if they do though, they can eventually have a large and very good army that doesn't cost a whole lot to maintain.

The Song on the other hand, their militas have a VERY high spawn and rate, you can easily make a lot of these quickly (should allow multiple recruit in one turn IMHO) but they cost a lot to maintain (though not as much to train ) due to the useful workers your taking away from society. their Xian Bin (local troops) are modestly costed to train, cheap enough to maintain, but is fairly low quality. while their Jin Juin (centreal army) is expensive to train , average to above average cost to maintain, high quality, but limited in training areas.

This would make each factions play quiet uniquely both in tech tree and development consideration. and unit's requirement to recruit etc...

[RollingWave]

Ok, so to put my idea into a more clear order (need some feed back here)

First, the economic system is tied to your central administration level, because coinage system depended on the effectiveness of government, more effective government = more respect for credit systems either VIA coins or paper currency.

So for all factions, there are essentially 4 levels of administration. it is a building that can only be built in the capital, and it will be an EXTREMELY costly upgrade espically towards the upper tiers (there are differences for each faction of course). representing the difficulties of actually establishing a higher level of government. however, you can take over other people's capital and use their administrations. which happened with the Jin took over the Liao and Northern Song for example. and eventually what happened when the Yuan took out all of China and then some.

Basically, there is 4 different levels.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 1: really no central government at all, leaders just assign tribal leaders to run their own tribes with their own rules / laws. Your faction is in reality a tribal alliance.


Level 2: basic central government, with attempts to centralize rule of law. however various part of your countries are still virtually autonomous save on military and diplomatic matters (if even that)

Level 3: well developed government, where rules of laws are pretty well established, and the central rule is concrete, however might not have the sophisticated capacity to push through complex administrative policies through extensive areas.

Level 4: Sophisticated government, where the central rule is unquestioned, and the government is capable of pushing complex policies into reality.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It isn't too much questioned that the Mongols and possibly Tibet falls into level 1 while the Song falls into level 4, and almost everyone else is in 2 or 3 pending research.

Once the level of administration is established, various cities can build additional buildings that represent the upgrade of currency system. for example.

valuable metal coins = coin smiths , representative currencies = coin casts , paper currency = mints.

HOWEVER, it is assumed that even without these buildings, you have some trading capacities, one level lower than your administrative capacity, forexample, all Song dynasty towns are immediately assumed be at level 3 (copper coins) regardless of it's actual buildings. but it can upgrade itself to level 4 by building a mint. because no matter where the Song dynasty district is or how underdeveloped it is, it's people aren't going to be bartering (ok in some extreme cases they did but the general logic holds)

Also (need to check if this is possible script wise), if you took over towns that have higher level coining systems than your current administration level, then it can still work but at a reduced effect. however you can't build new onces until your central administration level is actually up to that level.


So how does this sound?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Been busy/had a hangover today, will look over it more tomorrow. One quick comment is that we have no way of allowing something to be built only in the capital, practically speaking. Like certain regions could be initially named 'capitals' but after that we have no way to track what occurs if a capital gets captured, since the relevant scripting commands are entirely useless.

So we should look at another way than capital or something. I'll think more about it, just throwing it out there so people know it isn't that simple in the progression of a game.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Ok, so to put my idea into a more clear order (need some feed back here)

First, the economic system is tied to your central administration level, because coinage system depended on the effectiveness of government, more effective government = more respect for credit systems either VIA coins or paper currency.

So for all factions, there are essentially 4 levels of administration. it is a building that can only be built in the capital, and it will be an EXTREMELY costly upgrade espically towards the upper tiers (there are differences for each faction of course). representing the difficulties of actually establishing a higher level of government. however, you can take over other people's capital and use their administrations. which happened with the Jin took over the Liao and Northern Song for example. and eventually what happened when the Yuan took out all of China and then some.

Basically, there is 4 different levels.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Level 1: really no central government at all, leaders just assign tribal leaders to run their own tribes with their own rules / laws. Your faction is in reality a tribal alliance.


Level 2: basic central government, with attempts to centralize rule of law. however various part of your countries are still virtually autonomous save on military and diplomatic matters (if even that)

Level 3: well developed government, where rules of laws are pretty well established, and the central rule is concrete, however might not have the sophisticated capacity to push through complex administrative policies through extensive areas.

Level 4: Sophisticated government, where the central rule is unquestioned, and the government is capable of pushing complex policies into reality.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It isn't too much questioned that the Mongols and possibly Tibet falls into level 1 while the Song falls into level 4, and almost everyone else is in 2 or 3 pending research.

Once the level of administration is established, various cities can build additional buildings that represent the upgrade of currency system. for example.

valuable metal coins = coin smiths , representative currencies = coin casts , paper currency = mints.

HOWEVER, it is assumed that even without these buildings, you have some trading capacities, one level lower than your administrative capacity, forexample, all Song dynasty towns are immediately assumed be at level 3 (copper coins) regardless of it's actual buildings. but it can upgrade itself to level 4 by building a mint. because no matter where the Song dynasty district is or how underdeveloped it is, it's people aren't going to be bartering (ok in some extreme cases they did but the general logic holds)

Also (need to check if this is possible script wise), if you took over towns that have higher level coining systems than your current administration level, then it can still work but at a reduced effect. however you can't build new onces until your central administration level is actually up to that level.


So how does this sound?

Okay I've read through all of this now, and I really like this idea. Apologies it took me so long to respond to this, I've been all over the place the last few days getting ready for my trip and such.

I also had an idea I think I can make it work with the capitals thing, but it isn't working as intended. The idea is to disable the ui for the 'move capital' button and only enable it to auto-move a capital as coincides with it being captured.

As another addendum, what about the possibility of governments in exile? With only four levels there's plenty of room for a Level 2.5/3.5 for governments in exile of the tier higher. Not sure entirely about the implementation on this, but just throwing it out there.

Another thing to consider is that the AI doesn't have any clue how important its capital is or isn't. To some extent I imagine the AI can be told to consider it a vital region, but not to the extent the player could by far. So we should probably not try to impose to many capital-based penalties or bonuses on the AI, though we could still potentially let the player capture 'traditional capitals' that give marginal extra benefits I suppose. It's hard to say. I'll think more on it.

[Yelü Dashi]

I guess it wouldn't *have* to be the capital, just any city that had certain high tier structures. We set it up so that its most likely to built in the capital (easiest for the player) or in some cases (the Song) is already present. I assume from what RW is saying only one of these is needed, and effects are global - changing the player's economic system/income. So perhaps we can link it to certain buildings only faction capitals will have or possibly link it to population ?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Yeah I still have to look it over in more detail, I'm sure it's a really good idea I just haven't gotten around to reading and absorbing it yet, since I've been busy and a bit under the weather. I'll figure something out for capitals, just will take time.

[RollingWave]

Well, yeah, I'm not sure if it's limited to the capital, but aren't there buildings where you can only build one of?

so basically, the logic should be that every faction start out with a building in their capital that represent their central administration building. (palace? court? something like that) and it can't be build else where unless you lost / destroyed it. (maybe except the tribal factions.) that way you could only upgrade the building and can't build it elsewhere. it sort of represent how you can't really just up and move your capital on a whim.

The particular building would be pretty expensive of course. but I guess if possible maybe it should vary from faction to faction. I.E that less developed factions would have a harder time "upgrading" to a more sophisticated government while already more sophisticated governments could setup a new central admin more easily in the event that they lost their key building. something like that.

yeah, in effect it's a global bonus and it also unluck additional "upgrade" buildings for your faction on economy (and maybe other stuff as well)

[RollingWave]

True, but it is really more historically accurate this way, for example, the Song was basically done after the fall of Lin An. the places that remained unconquered basically fell into a state of chaos and it was everyman for themself. many surrended without a fight, some tried to forge a defense themself.

I guess maybe we should not set the limit as "only build in capital" but rather that "you can only build one .. and/or use the one you capture"

Also, the Jin dynasty had it's 5 capital system, so it should start out with multiple buildings like this to represent how it wasn't as prone to this effect

[Marcion]

Could by chance you could just have these things be static "markers" that you can upgrade, like what EB has for its levels of provincial development. Except there would only be one (or five), and they would be in each nation's capital from the beginning and you couldn't move or demolish them.

That would mean you wouldn't be able to truly move your capital, and you'd lose it if it was captured, but maybe that's a good way to go, as with what was said about Lin An.

[Augustus Lucifer]

That's certainly possible, and would be comparatively easy.

On another note, I think what we should do with pastoralism/agriculturalism is differentiate the development paths on two different bases: Region & Faction.

For each region we should have an idea of what the climate in that region is most suitable for. We can then counterbalance the ability for each building to be developed in each region with the potential development of the opposite.

So if each region was given a number between 4 and 7 to first determine its overall production capacity, that number is then divided between pastoral and agricultural usage of the land in that province as the means of sustenance. An Indochinese province may have 4 levels of agriculture then and 0 levels of pastoralism available if it has low production capacity. Meanwhile a province in Mongolia might have 5 levels of pastoralism and no capacity to support agriculture. On the other hand a province like Xiping would be relatively split between the two. We should first determine the percentile distribution of land availability in each region, and then base the production capacity upon that, since different factors contribute to a productive primarily pastoral area (rainfall) as opposed to a productive primarily agricultural area (access to floodwater).

On top of this we should have each faction able to incorporate development of land in each sector to a varying degree. Factions like the Song would be able to utilize all arable land to its maximum regional potential, as factions like the Mongols would be able to use pastures to their full potential. Other factions like Jin, Kara Khitai, and Xi Xia all would have varying degrees of each. Factions would be able to develop means to become more versatile through the technology system, though it would be harder for a sedentary population to adapt to nomadism than vice versa, to offset the lessened pastoral land in respect to arable land and represent the actuality.

So if as the Song I captured Qara Qorum, I'd not be able to develop any farmland there whatsoever and would therefore have negative population growth and food shortages in the region, making it costly to hold. This could potentially trigger in turn a heightened chance of armed revolt and human flight.

Now as we know it was not entirely uncommon for factions in North China to 'double dutch', but with that came cultural insecurity as native parties conflicted with reform parties, shown most prominently in the reign of Li Yuanhao of Xia. Other factions not pressed by circumstance to adapt would have an even harder time of it, but consequently be more at home in their preferred means of production.

[RollingWave]

That would make a lot of sense. though I think in terms of agriculture, it is something the nomadic factions could potentially learn in the tech tree once they have enough settle lands under their hand. the Yuan dynasty ended up extending the grand canal for example.

The general reason why some Chinese dynasties (particularly those founded by northern tribes) were able to hold nomadic areas was because they weren't really stationing their own soliders there. but rather just an administrator who works with local tribesman. those particular settlements are supported by the various nomadic tribes that come to trade . but in the cases where the settle civilization conquere seem determined to do genocide (read, Han Wudi) they'll obviously all flee the area.

I'm not sure how we can adequetly represent that. but many some dynasties (like the later half of th Han, or the Tang dynasty, or the Qing.) were able to more or less subject nomadic areas. though in the Han's case it was more like a tributory. and in the Tang's case they had pretty real control for most of it's peak period by letting it's emperor acting as the tribal alliance leader, and in the Qing's case. they simply brought on the Mongolian nobles onto their boat and share the prestige with them. (the Machurians and Mongols formed the "banner mans" during the Qing, it's basically like feduel class much like the medevial knights)

[Augustus Lucifer]

This thread has been stuck. I would like to focus on this and the religions right now in terms of modding systems, so input here to expand upon anything not already mentioned is of course appreciated.