EU Report
Independent Experts Blame Georgia for South Ossetia War
An EU expert commission has put the blame for last summer's South Ossetia war on Georgia, but also holds Russia partly responsible, SPIEGEL has learned. The findings, which are still under wraps, are likely to reignite the debate on the causes of the war when they are published.
The independent commission appointed by the European Union to investigate the war between Georgia and Russia last summer has concluded that Tbilisi is responsible for causing the five-day conflict, SPIEGEL has learned.
According to diplomats in Brussels who are familiar with the contents of the secret document, the EU experts also assign part of the responsibility for the war to Russia, however. The report, which stems from an initiative by German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and his colleagues from the Benelux countries, concludes that Moscow escalated the conflict through its massive deployment of troops.
The international commission, which is headed by Heidi Tagliavini, wants to keep its findings under wraps until next week because the Swiss diplomat first wants to present the controversial results to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon in New York. After that, the ambassadors of the 27 EU member states in Brussels and the Georgian and Russian governments will be simultaneously informed of the commission's findings.
The publication of the report is set to spark renewed debate about who is responsible for the war. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has already complained that "some idiots say we started the war." Tbilisi is mainly afraid that the report will reduce the chances of Georgia being allowed to join NATO within the near future.
The conflict broke out on Aug. 7, 2008 when Georgia attacked the breakaway region of South Ossetia. Russian forces quickly repelled the Georgian attack and advanced into Georgia. Hundreds of people, including many civilians, are believed to have died during the fighting before a ceasefire was agreed upon on Aug. 12.
The report does not put the whole blame on either country
The war in Georgia last year was started by a Georgian attack that was not justified by international law, an independent report has concluded.
However, the attack followed months of Russian provocation, the EU-sponsored report said. Russia said the report delivered an "unequivocal answer" on the question of who started the conflict.
But Georgia said the investigation proved that Russia had been preparing for war all along. The death toll from the August 2008 war is generally put in the hundreds. Tens of thousands fled their homes.
The report was commissioned by the Council of the European Union, and written by Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini, with the help of 30 European military, legal and history experts.
Its task was to investigate the "causes and roots" of the conflict, but not to determine guilt so it could be used for compensation claims, Ms Tagliavini's deputy, Uwe Schramm, told the AP news agency.
He said the team had received "a lot of co-operation from all sides".
The conflict erupted on 7 August 2008, as Georgia shelled the breakaway region of South Ossetia, in an attempt to regain control over it. The previous months had seen a series of clashes.
Russian forces quickly repelled the assault, and pushed further into Georgia.
The conflict lasted for five days before a ceasefire was agreed. Russia pulled back, but built up its military presence in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Mutual blame
At the time, Russia blamed Georgia for the outbreak, accusing it of shelling civilians and attacking Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
For its part, Georgia said it was targeting separatist forces - and repelling a Russian invasion that was already under way.
Destroyed Tskhinvali apartment block
Fighting damaged buildings in the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali
Given the European Union's relations with Russia have improved compared to a year ago, reaction in Brussels may be muted - welcoming the report itself, but distancing the EU from its content, says the BBC Brussels correspondent Dominic Hughes.
Russia has recognised South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has vowed to protect them. Speaking in August at the opening of a direct gas pipeline to South Ossetia, Mr Putin said his country would not allow any "military escapades" by Georgia.
Georgia considers both breakaway regions part of its territory. The rest of the international community, with the exception of Nicaragua and Venezuela, has refused to recognise their declarations of independence.
A report published on the first anniversary of the conflict by Amnesty International said a total of nearly 200,000 people were displaced by the fighting, and that 30,000 remained displaced.
It said most of the displaced were ethnic Georgians, many of whom continued to lack basic services and suffer hardship.
So, will this report help the EU-Russia relations since it puts the majority of the blame for the war on Georgian shoulders (e.g. "starting an unjustified war) whilst at the same time noting that Russia helped escalate the conflict by deploying a massive amount of troops (Spiegel).
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Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
was interesting the way Western news painted it at the time, "Russia Invades!" ect
Evil russians marching around blasting stuff..
I bought it at the time, cos well, it was the russians, my Nan told me many stories of the russians from the fall of germany in 1945 and when she lived in the russian side of the divide before getting out, add to that everything else i knew about russian troops marching around generally being dicks, i put two and two together and assumed that russian troops attacking something meant very bad news. I did though agree with russia driving georgia out of SO, but still I and many people on this board had this one so spectacularly wrong and if i remeber correctly for quite a long time it was just Czar vs the board...well turned out Czar was right and most of us here jumped to conclusions. Just a thought.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred
was interesting the way Western news painted it at the time, "Russia Invades!" ect
Yes.
If the average viewer had an attention span of over 1 year, they would certainly have egg on their faces by now.
Fortunately for them, most people have forgotten about this conflict a long time ago.
But it's good to see European politicians at least care about the truth, rather than just finger-point Russia to appeal to the masses.
Last edited by Erik; September 30, 2009 at 09:44 AM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Erik
Yes.
If the average viewer had an attention span of over 1 year, they would certainly have egg on their faces by now.
Fortunately for them, most people have forgotten about this conflict a long time ago.
But it's good to see European politicians at least care about the truth, rather than just finger-point Russia to appeal to the masses.
That's why I didn't comment at the time. Most of our news companies were both hyping the news up and making conclusions from limited information.
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Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred
was interesting the way Western news painted it at the time, "Russia Invades!" ect
Evil russians marching around blasting stuff..
wasnt reported like that where i live - and my country is supposedly the head of anti russian propaganda in Europe..
seriously, reading some posts in this thread - did people only read the thread title and then make horribly ill informed comments?
every reasonable argument made against Russia in the past over these boards and elsewhere with regards to the georgian conflict, are, by the findings of this investigation, vindicated. Reinforced.
Last edited by Carach; September 30, 2009 at 10:37 AM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Carach
wasnt reported like that where i live - and my country is supposedly the head of anti russian propaganda in Europe..
seriously, reading some posts in this thread - did people only read the thread title and then make horribly ill informed comments?
Well i live in the same place as you...
No its true ours was no where near as bad as many other western outlets, US in paticular. Is why i specifically said 'western media', but they were still quite off in the picture they painted and it was hyped to certain degree as a the russian war machine hungry for blood, though no where near as badly as most other western outlets, russian media was pretty stupid too though.
The better coverage came from the likes of Al-jazzera.
Last edited by bigfootedfred; September 30, 2009 at 10:48 AM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Carach
wasnt reported like that where i live - and my country is supposedly the head of anti russian propaganda in Europe..
seriously, reading some posts in this thread - did people only read the thread title and then make horribly ill informed comments?
every reasonable argument made against Russia in the past over these boards and elsewhere with regards to the georgian conflict, are, by the findings of this investigation, vindicated. Reinforced.
Carach, you've been proven to be wrong more than once. The simple fact remains that the Georgians started the conflict.
Georgia, enforcing it's territorial integrity in a region near unanimously recognized as Georgian by the international community, is to blame huh?
Nice double standard. When Georgia attacks South Ossetians it's ''enforcing it's territorial integrity'' (whatever the hell that means), when Serbia attacked Bosnia it was ''aggression against an independent people''. If the Serbs pulled the crap the Georgians did towards the Ossetians when Kosovo seceded, there would be an outcry and most likely military intervention.
Last edited by Dr. Croccer; September 30, 2009 at 12:12 PM.
Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.
Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
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Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
Zoals oude bomen zingen,
Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
Bij een bries of bij een storm.
Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.
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Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,
Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,
'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.
Originally Posted by Jörg Friedrich
When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,
Then I'm God.
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Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.
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I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Tränen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge, Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer
Nice double standard. When Georgia attacks South Ossetians it's ''enforcing it's territorial integrity'' (whatever the hell that means), when Serbia attacked Bosnia it was ''aggression against an independent people''. If the Serbs pulled the crap the Georgians did towards the Ossetians when Kosovo seceded, there would be an outcry and most likely military intervention.
A double standard huh? Where? South Ossetia was not recognized by anyone except Nicaragua, Venezuela and Russia, thus they cannot by any reasonable account be considered an independent country and therefore Georgia was defending territorial integrity.
let me make it simple for you to understand, territorial integrity= the security and recognition of a state's territorial boundaries. Is that really hard to understand? If you're not a native speaker of English I'll give you a pass, in which case there is no need to write "whatever the hell that means" because that just makes you look ignorant.
Again, you try to Strawman the argument by bringing up Serbia and Bosnia. I've never said a word about Serbia and Bosnia in this thread or any other, but you respond to me as if you somehow know my stance on that case and call it a "double standard". Furthermore, you're pretending that that case is somehow relevant to this one. Where do you get this crap?
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer
Carach, you've been proven to be wrong more than once.
posting fact after fact, backed up by dozens of sources, pieces of evidence and government stances. Russian possy (and u apparently), post fantasy-spun opinion with absolutely nothing backing it up and thats apparently proving me wrong.....more than once?
well hot damn i didnt realise thats how it works
the articles posted, as ive stated, back up exactly what i and many others (including the vast, vastttttttt majority of the world) have said and claimed. I fail to see how ive been proven wrong once, let alone these imaginary times u speak of? Perhaps u could direct me to one such example?
Originally Posted by Mangalore
Nonsense. The Russian peacekeeping force along that internal Georgia border - with consent of the UN and the international community - since 1992 should tell you something.
yet these peacekeeping forces have no legal ability to conduct offensive operations without consent of the UN security council. Yet they did not only commit to such operations, they sent in a few thousand extras to invade georgia proper too. Does this not tell you something? Perhaps that Russia's side of this was just as much an illegal action, if not more so, as Georgia's?
Post edited. Please don't bypass the censor. - Thanatos
Last edited by Thanatos; September 30, 2009 at 04:04 PM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred
was interesting the way Western news painted it at the time, "Russia Invades!" ect
Evil russians marching around blasting stuff..
I bought it at the time, cos well, it was the russians, my Nan told me many stories of the russians from the fall of germany in 1945 and when she lived in the russian side of the divide before getting out, add to that everything else i knew about russian troops marching around generally being dicks, i put two and two together and assumed that russian troops attacking something meant very bad news. I did though agree with russia driving georgia out of SO, but still I and many people on this board had this one so spectacularly wrong and if i remeber correctly for quite a long time it was just Czar vs the board...well turned out Czar was right and most of us here jumped to conclusions. Just a thought.
No, not only Czar. You forgot me, Volh, Twfanatic, Carb east, Pavlik, a few Dutch dudes, and some others. We were right against the entire board .
Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer
When did Serbia attack the US?
Nope there is a huge difference. The Georgian peace keepers actually betrayed their Russian & Ossetian comrades, and shot them in the back with their rifles and mortars. So it was a direct attack against Russia.
Lavrov even told the Georgians to get the out, or we will come. Saakashvili ignored him, probably eager after some initial success.
Originally Posted by Barry Ferguson
I'm given to understand the Russians had issued Russian passports to people in those regions.
God damn it.. WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE LEARN? I have explained this 1,000 times (and so have others).
In the 1990's, EVERYONE in former USSR were offered Russian passports. Including Georgians. This was so that people wouldn't be stuck in a region they didn't want to live in.
BBC propaganda machine is just amazing (and BBC is state owned. We all know how the British government thinks about Russia).
Also, recognising a breakaway region against international law could be considered more than a little provocative
It happened after the war.
Fact is, there was little provocation. There were tensions, and escalations coming from both sides, but the Georgian invasion was simple imperialism. Nothing else.
Last edited by Nikitn; October 02, 2009 at 02:27 PM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker
Interesting no doubt.
Still I wonder why Russia decided to annex that territory?
Mainly because the Ossetian's and Abkhazian's requested it, I would say. That is the story that I have learned from what I have read, with Ossetian's and Abkhazian's travelling with Russian passports and all.
And yes, Georgia deserved to get a bit of a whipping. I mean what the hell did they think would happen when their much smaller army invaded regions that have been claimed by Russia and occupied by Russian troops for over a decade?
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Legio XII
And yes, Georgia deserved to get a bit of a whipping.
obviously. yet nobody lifted their finger to stop them, besides Russians. all Russian protests were met with "STFU" type of responses. all Russian immediate cease-fire resolutions were blocked by the UN security council. what the hell else was left there for us to do? just sit and watch how they slaughter civilians and shell our peacekeepers?
I mean what the hell did they think would happen when their much smaller army invaded regions that have been claimed by Russia and occupied by Russian troops for over a decade?
ah the sweet ignorance. it was neither claimed by Russia, nor there were any stand-alone Russian troops in the region. there were 2000 Russian peacekeeprs, along with Ossetian peacekeepers and Georgian peacekeepers, all having equal amount of soldiers and doing the same job next to each other. that is, until Georgians decided to shoot and kill the Russian and Ossetian side.
Last edited by Panzerbear; November 05, 2009 at 10:39 PM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Panzerbear
obviously. yet nobody lifted their finger to stop them, besides Russians. all Russian protests were met with "STFU" type of responses. all Russian immediate cease-fire resolutions were blocked by the UN security council. what the hell else was left there for us to do? just sit and watch how they slaughter civilians and shell our peacekeepers?
You really deserve a mighty b.... slap for that absurdum of all absurd claims my friend !
Is Russian immediate cease-fire, shooting at civilians and withdrawing georgian forces, to inflict as much damage as possible to cover own losses ? Is this your understanding of ceasefire ???? Shooting, killing and murdering when the other side declares full cease fire ?
ah the sweet ignorance. it was neither claimed by Russia, nor there were any stand-alone Russian troops in the region. there were 2000 Russian peacekeeprs, along with Ossetian peacekeepers and Georgian peacekeepers, all having equal amount of soldiers and doing the same job next to each other. that is, until Georgians decided to shoot and kill the Russian and Ossetian side.
Oh yeah sure Mr. Panzerbear ..... and I guess, also without any justifying reason, right ?
But no, yes I remeber. The evil devil demonish GAF planned to erradicate the entire Georgian-Ossetian population in that area, by first eliminating all the poor innocent Russian "peacekeepers" in first line
I love those good ol' unstabil babushka stories ....
Last edited by GeneralL; November 06, 2009 at 02:07 AM.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by GeneralL
Is Russian immediate cease-fire, shooting at civilians and withdrawing georgian forces, to inflict as much damage as possible to cover own losses ? Is this your understanding of ceasefire ???? Shooting, killing and murdering when the other side declares full cease fire ?
I have no idea what this incoherent nonsense is supposed to mean. dont act like you dont know what I am talking about. Russians exhausted all diplomatic options to push Georgia to cease-fire until they had to finally intervene militarily, 8 hours later.
Oh yeah sure Mr. Panzerbear ..... and I guess, also without any justifying reason, right ?
oh I am sure you are perfectly capable of making up numerous reasons and excuses for Georgian govt to use heavy artillery against helpless Tskhinvali civilians in the middle of the night. its just it won't help your position to become any less morally bankrupt and ethically challenged.
everybody knows what happened and what Georgians did. you know it. I know it. EU knows it, everyone knows it. yet you are still trying to put a lipstick on a pig...
Originally Posted by Salvatorel
who with sane mind will believe that Russians are real saviors of poor Ossetian angels,who where mercilessly massacred by evil Georgians?
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
Originally Posted by Panzerbear
ah the sweet ignorance. it was neither claimed by Russia, nor there were any stand-alone Russian troops in the region. there were 2000 Russian peacekeeprs, along with Ossetian peacekeepers and Georgian peacekeepers, all having equal amount of soldiers and doing the same job next to each other. that is, until Georgians decided to shoot and kill the Russian and Ossetian side.
Those Russian Peacekeepers were the Russian troops I was referring to. My mistake, semantics-wise. I was also unaware of the joint nature of the peacekeeping arrangement. Nonetheless, Georgia chose to initiate a military action against a much larger opponent. Not so smart.
Re: EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
That's great news. I don't care for the war, but I do care for the truth. Finally someone is thinking from a less bias perspective...I felt like I was taking crazy pills when all the Russia bashing was ramped.
EU Report Blames Georgia for South Ossetia War
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Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred
.
out, or we will come. Saakashvili ignored him, probably eager after some initial success.
