A Venetian Vexation

[Tyrenia]

Hello all!

I have recently started an Early Era campaign as Venice (H/M), and I was hoping for some advice.

It is turn 15, and I control the starting Venetian settlements as well as Florence. I tried to go for Milan, but before my besieging army arrived, Genoa had it. I'm making only about 2k a turn due to extensive economic building, but hopefully that will change soon. I have allied with the Papal States, HRE, Hungary, Byzantium and Poland. My strategy is, once I am earning around 10k a turn, to raise an army to destoy Genoa and Sicily, so I control the whole Italian peninsula (bar Rome). I plan to use spies to destabilise Bologna, cause it to rebel, so I can take it without the HRE attacking. To rid Rome of the Papal States, I will give them several provinces (hopefully gained on crusade), watch them move the capital, then purchase it from them.

So I guess I have 2 main questions:

1. What can I be doing to raise a lot of money quickly?
2. Where should I go after Italy?

Also, general advice that may help in the crushing of the other Italian factions would be much appreciated, as well as things that I may need to be aware of.

Thanks

[pefwin]

I would go east and look to rumble with the Byzantines and the Sejuks.

[cedric37]

To get money fast, bring on a crusade on alexandrie / jerusalem, you can have big armies with 0 upkeep during a few turns, which is sufficient to get cash, then loot those rich cities (more cash) and keep them; they will give you tons of money each turn. But this let your own cities exposed to other italian factions so let a strong garrison there plus this can be a bad move if you are not allied with at least one of the 2 other italian nations (i don't count out the pope as a nation).

I also suggest to crush byz as suggested above, and take constantinople which is a very very rich city. Then if not done already you could move to jerusalem (crusade) and take it along with alexandrie and cairo (and maybe antioche later). Once you control those very rich cities you have so much money that you can really pee armies ^^ Plus fighting muslims will bring you on the pope side and then you can use exco to crush other catholic factions. This is what i did when i played as Venice, and it worked very well.

When acting as Venice, i concentrate mainly on cities with direct access to the mediteranean sea; this makes you sooooo rich!

[Kazuhiro]

Cancel your alliance with the Byzantines. Firstly, this will be a problem when the hungarians and the byzantines start to battle it out. Hungary has poor regions, but the byzantines have Thessaloniki, Constantinople, and Corinth, which I think are the most important Aegean settlements. You can also call crusades against them which will raise your favor with the pope.

Then take Bari, or Palermo if you can, and then convert ancona to a city. This will raise Venice's income by at least 1000 in a short time.

[Warmaster Tibs]

I am playing as the vents VH/H and my plan was " DIE MOTHER ERS!"

Where I simply took what I wanted. Turn 1 I marched right on Bolonga. I played smart trying to avoid the pope and before he could excumunicate me I took Bolonga and dident fight the HRE anymore. I still cant get a alliance with anyone sadly but I can kick there asses. I cant get any allies and money has been tight. But I sure have gotten far. So far I took out sicily and am marching on rome to take down the pope. Afterwards hopefully I can get back in the church and avoid a crusade. Its been fun so far. Soon I hope to get a peace treaty with everyone and bring peace to my new Empire. Thus growing rich through my new trade lands. After I am rich I will then set out for further conquest on whoever I feel like. Id be afraid if I where the Byzantines or Genoa.

[Sokar Rostau]

Personally, I never bother with Sicily until I'm forced to give them a beat-down because they grew the balls to attack Ragusa, they're usually more concerned with Africa so if you leave them alone they'll generally leave you alone so long as you're on the Pope's good side.

Prepare two stacks of militia and invade Crimea and Kiev by sea. Kiev because it's rich and Crimea because you can. Both have sea ports and, as an added bonus, are in Orthodox hands so no hassles with the Pope, also send a bunch of Priests over for College of Cardinals training. Distance is a double edged sword. It's advantageous because the Cumans or Rus will have to pass through Hungarian and Byzantine lands to get to your main empire, but this means they will concentrate their war on reclaiming the lands you stole from them... but you have kick-arse militas so defending them shouldn't prove too much of a hassle. When you're ready, take the Orthodox castle (can't think of the settlement's name), that's either north or north-west of Kiev and try to buy the castle to the west, which is closer to Kiev, that is likely owned by Poland or Hungary.

The next step is to let Hungary and the Byzantines fight it out with the intention of taking over Greece once the opportunity to join the two parts of your empire arises. Probably about the time the Byzantines take Budapest you should be prepared to attack three or four of their settlements at once, by sea where possible (Corinth and Athens or Thessalonika for example).

[meese]

Hmm I haven't played Venice in a while but I did play Sicily and money-wise, focus on taking over all of Italy. The biggest problem will come from the Pope and I guess in that sense, it's up to you to either fight him and be excommunicated or to wait.

To conquer Italy, make sure you have quite a few cavarly to take care of the genoese crossbows and sicilian muslim archers because as far as I can remember, Venice don't get good archers until a bit later. Aside from that, it'll largely be a slug-fest of spear militia so you'll need to do quite a bit of flanking with superior cavalry to avoid losing too many troops and time. Also make sure while you're doing this, to keep producing units since the cities are so close together and against the Papal armies in particular, you might suffer severe casualties. I'd also keep Venice well-defended in case the Byzantines come knocking at your door, or even the Hungarians or Holy Roman Empire.

Money-wise, since these pseudo-Italian Wars are so based on the strength of your economy, I'd actually put everything on low taxes once you have some kind of stability because it puts you ahead technologically and also gives you more money in the long run. As Sicily, I had taken over the end of the boot up to Rome (and including) as well as Genoa, and I could finance two armies I think it was on low taxes.

Once you have the italian peninsula, you will probably want to Greece as the Byzantines will most likely be at war with you by then or first move up and maybe take the few castles in the Alps to act as a buffer for your money-making cities. I guess the direction really depends on your standing with the pope - the pope hated me and I was excommunicated (for taking Rome) so I was perfectly happy with allying with the Byzantines who were struggling with the Turks, and slowly moving my armies across the coast to Marseilles and Toulouse, keeping a strong garrison in each (as you'll have plenty of money). If you're on good terms with the pope and would rather leave the Byz to themselves (as they are rather tough), then perhaps move down to Africa. The thing is, once you have Italy, you're going to be really rich and if you were patient enough, you could probably grind down everyone next to you, one by one, if you kept producing more units. The tough part with the Italians is actually taking it all because the troops are so similar and the Pope is always staring you down.

[Misery]

I just started to play Venice (Italian faction for the first time) and I have to say I like it. Money is good and you get decent units rather early.

I made Alliance with HRE, Hungary and Sicily (start with Vatican alliance), so my flanks are protected. I have moved and taken over present day Albania/northern Greece. next was to built up navy and establish naval control of Adriatic and Greek coastline.

Plan is to take Greece for myself but not take Constantinople at this stage. After Greece declare crusade and move and capture Gaza in then ask for Crusades against Jerusalem or Alexandria depending on how crusader states are fearing. Once I got secure foothold in holy lands, build up army and capture Crimea hit up Moors and take western Africa.

After that bring my crusading armies back to Italy, declare pope a heretic, capture Rome, declare myself savior of Europe and destroy HRE. (please keep this confidential, in the case HRE/pope agents get this info I will be in serious trouble)

[PerXX]

Which Submod you're using is rather important here.
I'm using PB's RR/RC mod, and the start was very hard. Especially the Byzantines spammed me with their Scoutotai, that's way more powerfull than anything I can build. I've lost all settlement east of Venice atleast twice! Eventually you'll get stronger units, and with some tactical seaside raids, I've now manage to beat them back - even taking Constantinoble.

[baronfuming]

I've found that farms are the best way to make a consistently sufficient about of money. At turn 15, you should have access to communal farming and land clearance, you should always invest in farms.

[Gogolometro]

If is Venetia, than fun it is. No matter if is Gracul, RR/RC or plain SS, Venetians are a good faction to play, a bit easy I can say. Venetia is a easy to defend because the bridge, port and big walls/city. The Dalmatian fortress is a strong point, try to not push to fast in too many direction. Milan in RR/RC is a must to be captured. Than mantain the allliance with pope, via small money donations.
Keep in mind, your x-bows/arbalesters can easy penetrate any armor/shields of bizantines. Any city garisoned with trebuchets and magdonels have the power to kill a quarter of atackers units before atacker enter in city. They have best militia in all game. The cheap cavalry militia are very strong in charges, and offer venetians fast ways to kill infantry stacks. The hammer boys will make mashed potatoes from any armor units. You access first pikes and gunners. That mean superiority of technology. Watch how enemy flee when gunners start their show. About venetians, very important in RR/RC is use 2 things versus bizantinnes. First atack their rebel cities. Second anytime will be richer than them. That mean even are militia versus scutatoi, you can make more units.

[Sir Walter]

If is Venetia, than fun it is. No matter if is Gracul, RR/RC or plain SS, Venetians are a good faction to play, a bit easy I can say. Venetia is a easy to defend because the bridge, port and big walls/city. The Dalmatian fortress is a strong point, try to not push to fast in too many direction. Milan in RR/RC is a must to be captured. Than mantain the allliance with pope, via small money donations.
Keep in mind, your x-bows/arbalesters can easy penetrate any armor/shields of bizantines. Any city garisoned with trebuchets and magdonels have the power to kill a quarter of atackers units before atacker enter in city. They have best militia in all game. The cheap cavalry militia are very strong in charges, and offer venetians fast ways to kill infantry stacks. The hammer boys will make mashed potatoes from any armor units. You access first pikes and gunners. That mean superiority of technology. Watch how enemy flee when gunners start their show. About venetians, very important in RR/RC is use 2 things versus bizantinnes. First atack their rebel cities. Second anytime will be richer than them. That mean even are militia versus scutatoi, you can make more units.

The Scoutatoi and their navy are to watch out for. If you can afford to, get Bologna by engineering a civil revolt or something. And get Milan, Bari, Cagliari and Ancona right at the start so no other Italian faction can rival you in power! (A must for Genoa and Sicily too in my opinion)

[Tyrenia]

Sorry I haven't replied until now, I'm just very busy with study at the moment, and haven't found much time to play TW for a while.

Ok, so I'm now at turn 40. Nothing much has changed. The Pope called a Crusade on Baghdad, and I took it, then gave it to HRE in exchange for Bologna. Several turns later, Baghdad rebelled, .

Now my Crusade army is attempting to lay waste to the Holy Lands controlled by the Fatimids, and I now control Acre, and will use it as a platform to take several surrounding settlements. The idea behind this is to convince Popey to move his capital to Jerusalem (or thereabouts) so I can purchase Rome from him.

The biggest problem is money. While I am making HEAPS of money from my Italian cities, my merc heavy crusade army is siphoning most of it. I don't want to disband the army, because it will take ages to recruit a new one at Acre, leaving it vulnerable to attack, but I can't raise another one with which to attack Genoa, who have been prowling menacingly on my borders, if I keep it.

So I see that these are my options:
1. Continue trying to take the area around Jerusalem and try to appease get Rome without starting a war with the Pope.
2. Give Acre to the Pope, disband the mercs and send the rest of my troops home to Italy to attack Genoa
3. Disband the Crusade army and wait for another one to be built in Acre (time and cash consuming), then continue to create a mini Empire in the Levant
4. Another plan, thought of by you guys

Oh, and for the record, I'm playing straight 6.0. No Submods. I haven't had time to download them yet, but I'm looking forward to after my exams finish, when I can actually do this

[cedric37]

I advise to wait until the next crusade to extend and build another army (thanks to 0 upkeep crusader army); then disband the mercs and keep an enclave in Egypt as this is synonymous of big cash (at least it was for me as venetian).

[Gogolometro]

Best is disband mercenarys. I love armenians and persian cavalry but, in Lenat be an ugly boy, sack all, destroy buildings, sell citys and come back in Europe. Never I keep Levant if I am a western faction, in fact Antiochia, Jerusalim and Alexandria cant make the money of italian citys. Sell the trups and conquer Italy.

[cedric37]

I have to disagree about money and Jerusalem, i have a game where Jerusalem alone give me 10k /turn

Ok my faction is ... kingdom of jerusalem.

But anyway, Jerusalem is always a rich city, worth to keep IMHO. But i understand that one mat seek to concentrate on a part of the world.

Personally, as Venice i extend all over mediteranea, and possess a huge fleet and rich cities everywhere (including of course Italy, as of course one would start to conquer it first or at least north of it).

[bgunter]

Not to hijack this thread but I read where someone said always build farms to get money but does'nt that make lots of squaler? Had'nt played mtw2 for awhile been playing RTW so not sure if that is just in rome or not.

[meese]

It increases population growth which will lead to squalor...but more population means more money too

[bgunter]

I think I did'nt type my question out very well. In Rome squaler was a big issue to the point where everyone was saying only build low level farms because it became really bad. I don't remember if they toned it down in MTW2 or in SS 6.1 or if it is just like it was in Rome.

[meese]

Oh...I dunno, as the Seljuks I've been building up to +3 or +4 farms I think and the only reason why some cities have gone into the red is because of bad generals with 0 loyalty. You probably also want to remember that when the plague comes along, you won't have any trouble with squalor Also that the money can be used to recruit a larger garrison if need be. *shrugs* I don't know if it's worth it or not seeing as the effects appear to be pretty negligible, both on the money-making side and the squalor-side.