The Marathas - Information & Discussion

[wangrin]

White regions are simply region that I don't know whose factions should be their owner...

Durrani Empire is named here "Afghans".
As Afghanistant is an emerging faction, they could be renamed Durrani as weel, this is a good idea.
Thanks Archon Musa

EARLY / MID / LATE POSSIBLE CAMPAIGN MAP

FACTIONS HOMELANDS

[Inkie]

Wow, this looks really great. With luck, IS III will be the first mod that makes India historically accurate and interesting - and in three different time periods. I really hope you guys can pull this off!

[wangrin]

I don't know if you saw those post :
Empire: Total War > Empire: Total War Mod Threads > Unit Packs and Stats > [Proposal] marwari horses,armored horses and painted horses
Empire: Total War > Empire: Total War Mod Threads > Compilations and Overhauls > [Proposal] 30 years war mod

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adrian74 add armoured horses into ETW.

When we will work on factions for India, I think I will work on some models for horses.
Golcondarisong blog is a great source to drawn inspiration.

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[Flikitos]

Yes those are good but I think they will need a new gloss map... (and our environment so as no to make those too shinny... ).

[Navneeth Jay]

Excellent idea on the armoured horses, Wangrin! The main European symbol of Indian warfare was indeed the heavy cavalryman. Though will this have any bearing on projectile resistance, or is it purely aesthetic?

Another small point for mention; do you know how and if you can modify battlefields? I admit that I haven't fought in every part of India, but it seems that every region in India has the exact same climate and campaign map. It's all usually a flat savannah, except for deserts past the Northwest and mildy cold, evergreen forests in Kashmir.

Climates are much more variable in reality. For examples:

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It's been some time since I played in India, but I remember the landscape in it as extremely limited. Not to mention the completely uniform architecture. I'm wondering if those could be changed a bit, particularly the lack of water which you see in ETW maps in general.

[EDIT] Maratha warfare was fought often in heavy brush and steep mountains; not normally on open battlefields. It gave them an advantage over the Mughal heavy cavalry. Do forests impede on cavalry effectiveness like in RTW?

[Don504]

Yeah I would love to see a change but I takes a lot of time to do, have you seen some of the AWC maps, I guess if they could do it so can we (if we have time) Rice paddies would be cool!!

[Navneeth Jay]

You mean the ACW maps? Well, I've played on a couple before, but only in custom matches. Do those maps also appear in the campaign itself? I sort of thought that the game randomly generates battlefields for the campaign maps since there's just so many unique fields.

Perhaps the bigger problem is the part about Indian warfare not extending to every region because of the fact India is conquered and at peace after a decade.

Now that I think of it, all of India should give higher resistance to foreign occupation for any faction but its regional faction (i.e. Marathas for Bijapur, Mughals for Hindustan [dubious?]. Sikhs for Punjab) India wasn't united to much a greater extent than Europe. Factions should actively have to fight off rebellion at home and not just their rivals. That should make things most interesting.



And one other thing comes to mind; the factions are incongruous with their languages. The Sikhs, Mysore, and all rebels speak Marathi. The Mughals... I think they speak Farsi, which is sensible if not entirely accurate. This problem is present in some other factions like Greece (non parlano italiano). Any word on changing that?

[Flikitos]

Yep Navneeth that is what I told to Don, ACW does not add new maps for Campaign Battles. I think rice paddies could be added as a building, but we would be not able to make them realistic. We are not able to create the same effect of the water as in vanilla. Or may be we could do it without water. Anyway we will see it as soon as we will start to work on the battle maps in the 2.2.2 release.

The marathas factions will come after the most important European factions, however your ideas are really interesting Navneeth, keep on this way. It is really helpful!

[Navneeth Jay]

Yes, I was afraid of that. The battlefields are just locked onto the campaign map, I suppose.

But as far as buildings are concerned, there may be some room for work there. There are some buildings which could add to the feel of each region. Goa could be more European in structure (is it not already? I can't remember) with Churches littered around the area. The South could have temples situated around cities. The architecture could vary, if the developers feel like going so far.

This site has very good and very many pictures of old depictions of the cities and modern pictures of old cities, along with architecture and landscape and whatnot.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1099783
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1216743
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1085767&page=2

Small shrine in Kerala (West Carnatica?) and medium temple here

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Some "stereotypical" large Hindu temples in Tamil Nadu (South Carnatica?)

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Bengali Temple

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Gujarati

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Maharashtra has more diverse examples, but I'll just show two. The second example is an authentic Maratha temple constructed about a fort

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What caught my eye were the old water storage tanks. Perhaps these could be added to each Indian town? Would the fact that they go into the ground cause a problem?

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[Y Brenin]

Stunning collection of photographs Navneenth Jay. Those temples are simply breath-taking example of Indian architecture; if they were to be including in the mod they would remedy vanilla's problem that India just seem well... Indian enough. Recreating them however would require some real artistry on the part of the modeler and texture designer, but the results would be great.

[Flikitos]

I have an idea how to integrate the big temples... But I can not tell you anything as soon as we will not have start the marathas faction.

Awesome pictures anyway, we will be able to create some buildings like those!

[Navneeth Jay]

Great to hear! :

One question, though: How are buildings added to the maps? Are they placed specifically on the campaign map? I'd imagine that the campaign map consists of various individually constructed battlefields (tedious as it may have been to do that...) that are locked onto segments of the map. So I suppose one just adds the buildings to those premade battlefields?

[wangrin]

Campaigns battle maps are different from custom battle maps.
The last ones are constructed battlefields when the first are only a basic outline.

For instance, campaign battle maps only show were buildings are, not exactly what building to use.
The game randomly add them.

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So, campaign battle maps seems to be easier to modify or create, but it will be difficult to use specifics buildings here.

[079rtfgkljt90rgio]

Proposed unit roster.



Infantry
Maratha is mostly known for its light cavalry, yet they had among the best Indian infantry units. Well trained and among the first units to be Westernized, the Maratha infantry was considered as a real threat by the IEC commanders. The Maratha was very kind to modernize its army and learn any technology that could improve their fighting abilities.

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Infantry

Maratha Confederacy Infantry

Maratha Confederacy Infantry
Exclusive Maratha infantry, formed out of all the ethnicity living in the Maratha confederacy.

• Maratha Regular Infantry: The Infantry of Maratha was one of the first to be Westernized in India as very early as the 1700s. Dress with native cloth at first, then with Europeanized cloth, the Regular Infantry was trained to firearm and rank drills by former Portugish NCOs and IEC Topasses and later by European NCOs, mostly French and British. They are equipped with flintlock rifles. It's somewhat equivalent to the European Line Infantry.
• Gardi's Musketeers: Part of the Regular Infantry of Maratha, this musketeers were members of General Ibrahim Khan Gardi army. Well trained units, they were loyal to the Marathas as was Gardi, and thus until the very end. They fought to the last men at the battle of Panipat in 1761. They are equiped with flintlock rifles. Highly trained and loyal unit, it can stand its ground against any European Line Infantry.
• De Boigne's Brigades: Part of the Maratha Regular Corps created by De Boigne French adviser at the end of the 18th century, it was the best trained unit among the Regular Army. They are equiped with flintlock rifles. Highly trained and well equipped, it can stand its ground against any European Line Infantry.
• Light Infantry Battalions: Part of the Maratha Regular army, they were created by De Boigne French adviser, at the end of the 18th century, to enforce the Line Infantry. They are equipped with special rifles made for them. They act somewhat like European Light Infantry.
• Maratha Sharpshooters: They were created by De Boigne French adviser, at the end of the 18th centuryPlaced among the Maratha Infantry, they fight like "snipers". Choose among the best shooters, they are equipped with special rifles, they can shot from afar.
• Mahars Musketeers: Irregular provincial troops coming from the Maratha territory, they are conscript serving their askars (lords). They are ill-equipped, dress like sepoys and armed with talwar swords and shields and with torador matchlock rifles.
• Rajput Musketeers: Irregular provincial troops coming from the Rajput territory, they are conscript serving their askars (lords). They are ill-equipped, dress like sepoys and armed with talwar swords and shields and with torador matchlock rifles.
• Pikemen - Swordmen - Archers: The backbone, with the sepoys, of the early Indian armies. They are mostly peasants conscript serving their lords or forced to enrol in the army. Some of them are also native units highly trained in hand to hand combat, like Sikh swordmen, who bring their own weapons. They are ill-equiped, ill-payed and very undisciplined. They are armed with talwar swords and shield, khanda rapier, tabarzin axes, gorz maces, barcha or ballam spears, and kaman composite bows. What the lack in fighting quality, they make up in number.

Foreign Infantry

Foreign Infantry
Similar to most Indian states, some units are nonetheless Maratha exceptions.

• Farangi - European Mercenaries: European deserters or former Portuguese soldiers at first, they served the Marathas as mercenaries as early as 1700. Then, arrived the French and British forces, many of them joined the Marathas as mercenaries. Not very loyal, but highly trained and well equipped with European rifles, they can stand their ground against any European Line Infantry.
• Topasses Regulars: The Indian Christians were among the first to be trained by European colonial forces in India since the end of the 17th century. The Marathas employed many of them to train their first Regular Infantry or to form their own Battalions. They are dress like European Infantry and are well equipped and trained. Not very loyal, they are somewhat similar to Foreign Line Infantry.
• Najib Musketeers: Irregular Muslim troops from India, they are conscript or volunteers serving their lords or seeking money. They are very ill-equipped and poorly dress, and armed with talwar swords and shields and with torador matchlock rifles. They often act as Garrison units.
• Afghan Mercenaries: Most of them are Pashtun, others are Muslims coming from around Afghanistan. Despite being Muslims, they are mercenaries looking for money. They are dress like Afghan soldiers. They are good shooters, but not very loyal and ill-equipped.
• Africans: Most of them are Abyssinians, mostly slaves imported by the Arabs for military purposes. If many Indian states employed them in very small numbers, the Marathas are among the one who used them in larger numbers. They are ill-equipped and poorly dress, but are very loyal and resistant fighters. During the 19th century, many "black" soldiers will become part of the Sultan or Rajah's Guards.
• Arabs: Native from Arabia, they are Irregular infantry mercenaries at first serving the Muslim Mughol Empire but later serving any Indian states. The Arab mercenaries enjoye the highest reputation for valour and intrepidity among the Maratha foreign army. They are well-payed and well-equipped. They are dress like Arabians, and armed with Arabian swords and matchlock rifles.
• Muslim - Hindu sepoys: Coming from all around India, they are Irregular troops looking for employers. The difference can be make with the turbans and the cloth's colors. They are well equipped with native weapons and cloth, but lack good training and discipline. Depending of the employer's religion, they are going to be more or less loyal. They are armed with talwar swords and shields and with torador matchlock rifles.

Cavalry
The cavalry was the backbone of the Maratha army and military strategy as the Mughal and British IEC quickly discovered at their disadvantage. The light cavalry was an answer to the heavily armoured Mughal cavalry. What they lacked in armours, they made up with speed. The role of the Maratha regular light cavalry was to attack the rear of the enemies and their supply lines. The rogue irregular cavalry were employed for plundering the enemy territories. This guerrilla strategy with the extensive use of light cavalry would soon be adopted by the British IEC.

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Cavalry

Maratha Confederacy Cavalry

Maratha Confederacy Cavalry

• Kahsgi paga: They are the Peshwa private cavalry, making them the elite of the Maratha cavalry. They are equipped and paid by the State and recruit among the Maratha best Silladars. Very well trained and well-equipped, they are wearing the finest armours and Indian cloth and they are armed with carbines, swords, composite bows and spears.
• Silladars: Part of the feudal system, they bring their own horses and equipment when called by their lords. Similar to heavy cavalry, they are well-equiped with helmets and cuirass of four plates joined by straps called the chahar a'inechor ‘four mirrors’, worn over a zereh mail shirt. The horses are also covered by bargustavan armours. They are armed with long swords, shields, cavalry spears and composite bows. By the end of the 18th century, they use less and less armours and become more similar to European line cavalry.
• Mahars Cavalry: Irregular Provincial Light Cavalry coming from the Maratha territory, they are conscript serving their askars (lords). They are ill-equipped, dress like sepoys and armed with talwar swords and shields and cavalry spears.
• Dhangars Cavalry: Irregular Provincial Light Cavalry coming from the Uttar Pradesh, Mewar, Gujarat and Maratha territories, they are conscript serving their askars (lords). They are ill-equipped, dress like sepoys and armed with talwar swords and shields and cavalry spears.
• Bargirs: Regular Maratha Light Cavalry recruited among the Dhangar ethnicity, they are the back bone of the Maratha light cavalry. They are use to attack the enemy supply lines and the lonely group of soldiers, but they do not face musketeer regiments. They are sufficiently trained and lightly equipped and are among the best light horsemen of India.
• Ekas: Regular Maratha Light Cavalry, they are volunteers who join the light cavalry, bringing their own horses and accoutrements. They are well-payed and lightly equipped and are among the best light horsemen of India. They act not only as light cavalry, but like European dragoons as well. They were armed at first with composite bows, but later with rifles.
• Pindaries: Rogue Irregular Light Cavalry, they live in the Maratha confederacy. They were employed for plundering the enemy or revolted countries through which they passed. They received no pay from the Peshwa but paid the general, to whose army they were attached, a tax, in return for protection which they received from him. They are not loyal, ill-equipped and ill-trained and will not face large enemy formations. They are only use for plundering enemy territories.

Foreign Cavalry

Foreign Cavalry

• Sipahis: Unit originating from the Ottoman Empire and passing by Persia then the Mughal Empire, Sipahis are Indian feudal-like provincial horsemen or salaried mercenaries horsemen. Their job included to join and reinforce the army's flanks during battle. They can charge enemy cavalry and even in some cases enemy infantry. Early period equipment was similar to Silladars, with shields, swords, lances, composite bow and sometimes plated chainmail. The horse was often barded. From then, Indian sipahis became more like European lancers. They were more lightly equipped with leather armours and the main weapon became the lance.

Artillery
Maratha wasn't famous for its artillery. Even if, like most Indian states, they understood the importance of artillery concentration firepower long before the European, they lacked the level of standardization of the European artillery. They had almost a hundred different calibres and had very heavy artillery guns, which was impossible in Europe due to the lack of animals capable of moving them. Furthermore, Maratha didn't have good foundries and were using former Mughal cannons or foreign guns. They started using Europeanized artillery by the mid of the 18th century. Maratha also had the infamous ban rockets.

[wangrin]

AGENTS :

MINISTERS

LEADERS : MINISTERS : Nana Phadnavis :

GENERALS

Dhanaji Jadhav : 1650-1708 Visaji Krushna Chinchalkar : one of the leading Generals of Peshwas in Northern India during 1759 to 1772

ADMIRALS

Kanhoji Angre :

[Cro_Hunger999]

Maratha Confederacy

State Flag:


Maratha chief: Mahadaji Shinde (1730 – 1794)

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Ashta Pradhan:

1. Peshwa: Madhavrao II (1774 - 1795)

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Madhav Rao Narayan, the Maratha Peshwa with Nana Fadnavis and Attendants.

2. Mazumdar: Nana Phadnavis (1742 - 1800)

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3. Nyayadhish: Bhairo Raghunath Mehendale (1750? - 1800s)

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4. Senapati: Mahadaji Shinde (1730 – 1794)

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5. Mantri: Maharani Ahilya Bai Holkar (1725 – 1795)

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Opposition:

1. Baji Rao II (1775 – 1851)

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2. Tukoji Rao Holkar (1723 - 1797)

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3. Daulat Rao Scindia Bahadur (1779 – 1827)

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4. Count Benoît de Boigne (1751 - 1830)

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5. Amar Singh (1738 - 1802)

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[Cro_Hunger999]

Maratha Empire - military commanders

Mahadaji Shinde (1730 – 1794)

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Parashuram Bhau

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Yashwant Rao Holkar (1776 - 1811)

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Maratha Empire - envoys

Bhairo Raghunath Mehendale (1750? - 1800s)

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[Humble Warrior]

not true - any western warship would deal with those small ships easilly - they were not able to compete on any level - that is why indiamans got guns in the first place - sometimes Indiaman ships had the military painting, but only few guns - from distance it was not possible to say if that ship is 60 gun doubledecker or just unarmed tradeship... plus, even if Indiaman had just few guns, it was still more than any of maratha pirate's barques could have... all in all, only way how to capture Indiaman, was to use lots of small boats to swarm it, and flood the deck with boarders... definitely not by gun dueling... oh, and if they would try something like that against real military ship (let say 4-rate), they would be sank very very fast... (imagine what a broadside of grapeshot would do to small boats...) all in all, Marathas naval power, was never a power in the first place. Just bunch of pirates, nothing more.

Thanks for this. Also makes a lot of sense. If the Marathas were any kind of threat to SOL ships wouldn`t this be noted somewhere in the history books? Not wikipedia they`ll make up nonsense to suit agendas not fact or reality...

Now I don`t mind the alternate history making in Empire (since who knows what might`ve happened if but for a twsit of fate), but the fact that the Marathas become a super powerhouse nearly every single game to the point they slow the game to a crawl makes absolutely no sense to me at all and seems so far from reality. Sure maybe once every 10 or 20 games, but every game?

Why did CA choose to make the Marathas so ridiculously overpowered? An error that they never bothered to clean up?