The Ottoman Empire - Information & Discussion

[r3deed]

comment removed

[hippacrocafish]

Short campaign objectives should be changed, conquering all the required territories is a chore even on Medium. I would change them like so:

Remove:

-Galacia
-Venetia
-Dagestan
-Persia's capital (Can't remember name)

Add:

-Georgia
-Transylvania
-Patras (The other half of Greece)
-Malta (?)

And some starting territories that should be required for victory

-Anatolia
-Egypt
-Syria
-Bulgaria
-Morea

[hippacrocafish]

I think the Ottomans need some better lancer cavalry, Deli horsemen just don't cut it.

[Heeehehe]

what people usually forget is , ottoman empire is supposed to be very powerful at start , the ottoman empire was still a major power and could defeat austria or russia alone in a war before 1753 , so i suggest that you put powerful early units but bad late units

I agree with him especially in term of Janissary, later janissary is already corrupted, the recruitment is not as strict as it was (as the early janissary live in barracks and could not marry until retirement, or engage in any other trade, but by the mid-18th century they had taken up many trades and gained the right to marry and enroll their children in the corps and very few continued to live in the barracks). as the janissary can marry and enroll thier children in the corps, they become corrupted, later janissary is more to political than military power, According to David Nicolle, the number of Janissaries in the 14th century was 1,000, and estimated to be 6,000 in 1475; but it was increased in the 18th century to 113,400 soldiers, but most were not actual soldiers and were accepted into the army through corrupt means and were only taking salary. and the core power of Islamic State military is their religion "Islam". Unlike the European states, The Islamic States is a multi-ethnic states that based on Islamic faith not their ethnic/race and their actual warrior is not fighting for anyone but The Creator and Lord of the Universe, King of All Kings "Allah" (they even wish to die as martyr to please their God and go to heaven) Islamic faith is the core of their millitary prowess. when their faith is damaged (which seems worse in late ottoman period) their prowess in many section (probably even all section) is damaged; their morale is severly damaged; because they have no cause to fight except maybe for their own life or perhaps their family, and even worse is only for their greed, so when the battle seems not profitable the army flee (they can even damage their own state for wealth like what the later janissary done), when morale is damaged fighting skill will be damaged because it's hard to fight in fear especially with the usually more complicated (I think) eastern martial art. some people think it's better to live peacefully in wealth than go to battle and die wich damage their fighting skill even more (because they have no motivation to train their self). it's their Islamic faith too that keep this multi-ethnic state united and prevented them from doing a "corrupted thing" and encourage them to seek knowledge. Ottoman army consists of many tribal warrior that have doing a good job in early period but when a tribal warrior become civilized (physically and mentally) and lose their motivation (religious motivation in this case) I think they're no better than a mob that seek wealth. and later nationalism damaged their unity make them quarrel among themself wich make the condition even worse

[Heeehehe]

I think the mamluk is underpowered, even Napoleon is impressed with the mamluk and make an army from them (Mamluks de la République), the mamluk even included in French Imperial Guard despite the decree of 21 March 1815 that stated that no foreigner could be admitted into the Imperial Guard (I Think French should have mamluk too as their unit). like Napoleon said "one Mamluk can hold two Frenchmen at bay; 100 Mamluks are equal to 150 French soldiers; three hundred Frenchmen do not fear the same number of Mamluks; a thousand Frenchmen will beat 1500 Mamluks." The Mamluk is individually stronger than The French Army, but The French Army is tactically superior at that time and better drilled as a team, and their bayonet is lethal to The Mamluk (as they are cavalry and bayonet works like spear) when deployed as team especially in Square formation like in Battle of the Pyramids. and they do fight well under Napoleon in Battle of Austerlitz. I think they should be stronger than the European Elite Cavalry. sory if i said something wrong or harsh i don't mean it and my english is not too good, Thanks

[Heeehehe]

any comment?

[panzer 4]

Janissaries still good late time, but only problem was who were the real janissaries and those who were only "janissaries" in name

[dark prens]

Hi. I played this mod with ottomans and I can say that this mod is worst mod ever. I cant create enough armies because of recruiment and upkeep cost. I lost many regions even I didnt make a battle. 1700 - 1800 historical period is great war period but we didnt make armies/large armies. In 1705, Britain declared to me war and took Egypt. At that time, ottomans didnt make war with British. Ottomans historical enemies are Austrians and Russians.Also maybe Persians. Can you tell me some advatages of your mod? With ottomans, it doesnt have.

[Heeehehe]

Janissaries still good late time, but only problem was who were the real janissaries and those who were only "janissaries" in name

Yes... i can accept this

[Goutlard]

Well, I studied some turkish history, I have bases but I'm not an expert.
Sorry about the mistakes : I am not a native english speaker but I think my english is understandable.

Bows are very well made. Actually turkish composite bows were able to shot arrows up to 700 meters while English longbows had trouble to shot arrows to 400 meters ! (Flight archery, not effective range)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bow

But, I am not so satisfied about the Jannissary corp realism.
Its much better than the Vanilla Marines used as bölük Janissaries but...
Yet the Janissaries were divided into 3 kinds that had sub-kinds. The Ceemat, Beylik & Sekban. But these are too divided to make single units about them.

It will be more accurate with :

-Actual Kapi Kulu Janissaries [representing the most of the janissaries] becoming line infantry instead of irregulars. They were full time soldiers not irregulars ! & Bostanci palace Guards elite infantry

-Adding the Solaks that were the Imperial Guards Janissaries using bows/swords/hallberts and a major kind of janissaries.

Picture [The 4rd Unit = Solak]


-Creating some armoured sipahis, sure many armours were outdated but were still used, musket bullets can be stopped by quiet high quality armours, a lot untill Napoleonic times !

[panzer 4]

this should be turbulent time in ottoman empire, it is time of religious revival and reforms in the empire and renovations and refurbishment of the army (until Abdulhameed I)

[Goutlard]

this should be turbulent time in ottoman empire, it is time of religious revival and reforms in the empire and renovations and refurbishment of the army (until Abdulhameed I)

Really turbulent, Janissairies weren't only a great part of the army, they were also a kind of a religious order. They refused using the european infidel's warfare tactics such as fire by rank, platon firing etc... They basically continued using mass fire for the elite troops, and a kind of light infantry behaviour for the others, where they placed themselves to don't shot friends and shot whenever they can.

The most important thing for them wasn't the group skills but the skills of the soldiers one by one.
In reality, their training was still more adapted to fight heavy cavalry at long range [Shooting accurately to take down the horses] than infantry that fires back, [Infantry vs Infantry needs at least a good AIM and a good reload time].

Because of this very slow modernisation, the sultan tried to form a new army of Nizam-I-Cedid, they were known to be more efficient than european line infantry because they were still trained like elite soldiers but Janissaries didn't accept competition and caused the end of this new army.

Janissaries were finished in 1808 by Mahmud II. Sekbhan-I-Cedids took their place.

What does it mean ?
- Most Janissaries were old fashioned & not efficient enough against line infantry but because of their training, even with the lack of bayonets, they were quiet adapted to destroying cavalry. [They were used during centuries as an Elite Troop Crushing European Heavy-Armoured Lancers, and their training didn't change that much !]
-Nizam-I-Cedids were efficient agaisnt line infantry but not enough numerous to withstand Janissary Opposition.
-A Sekbhan-I-Cedid army will be a great addition to the Ottoman Army in Empire Total War. As it is the Modern Ottoman Army's main line infantry unit created only 8 years after the end of the ETW campaign ! Didn't CA include ships that were used 50 years after the campaign's end ?

[=Prince Nuada=]

Can we get a new unit roster in the first post please?
Cheers.

[wangrin]

About Turkish navy, contrary to most of eastern faction, they have had ship of the line as depicted in Chesma and Patras naval battles account.

"In November 1769 for the first time in history, a Russian warship entered the waters of the Mediterranean. It was the 66-gun Yevstafy, sailing under the command flag of Admiral Grigory Spiridov. The Greeks had been fighting against their Turkish conquerors; Spiridov's squadron arrived to lend assistance, followed by a squadron headed by Rear Admiral John Elfinston.
After landing in the Greek province of Mo-reia, the Russians surrounded the Tur-kish fortress of Koron, and on 10 April 1770 took Navarino, capturing 45 guns. In May, Elfinston, with three ships of the line and two frigates, twice attacked the Turkish fleet of Kapudan-Pasha Hassan-bey. The Turkish forces were three times superior in number, but the constant assaults of the Russians forced them to retreat to the Aegean Sea. Count Alexey Orlov, who was at that time General-in-Chief of all the armies, was named by Catherine II Commander-in-Chief of the Fleet. He immediately combined the Spiridov and Elfinston squadrons, and began a search for the enemy. On 23 June 1770 he sighted the Turks lying at anchor in the Chios Strait. The enemy had 73 vessels, among them sixteen ships of the line and six frigates formed in two lines. The Russians could advance only nine ships of the line and three frigates; the Turks boasted twice as many guns. In counsel with his advisors, Count Orlov convened a Council of War. On the afternoon of 24 June the Russian fleet began to fire upon the Turkish centre and vanguard. The Russians were led by Spiridov on the Yevstafy, with Elfinston on the 80-gun Svyatoslav bringing up the rear of the column. Orlov's flag was flying on the 66-gun ship Three Hierarchs in the centre of Commodore Samuel Greig's formation.

The Turks opened fire on the Yevstafy. The Russian ship returned their fire and extensively damaged the 80-gun Real-Mustafa, which was commanded by the Turkish admiral. The Russians boarded the enemy ship, but at that moment the burning mast of the Real-Mustafa fell on the Yevstafy and ignited its powder supply. With a terrific roar both ships exploded and sank. Admiral Spiridov, nonetheless, succeeded in escaping the conflagration, and managed to transfer his flag onto the Tri Svyatitelya [Three Saints]. The rest of the Russian fleet continued the attack. The Turks, now in retreat, cut their anchor cables and hid in the narrow Chesma Bight.

Shortly after the battle the Russians decided to attack the enemy on the night of 26 June. Commodore Greig's unit, consisting of four ships of the line, two frigates, one bombardment ship, Grom and four fire ships, entered the Chesma Bight. At approximately midnight the Europe, commanded by Captain Klokachev, opened fire on the Turks. He was supported by Greig on the Rostislav and by other ships of the line and frigates. Within an hour and a half the water in the bight was illuminated by the light of the first burning Turkish ship. Greig sent out bombardment ships and branders to attack the enemy. One of the branders was commanded by Lieutenant Ilyin, who set fire to his brander and then rammed it into one of the larger Turkish war-ships. The brander was tightly hooked onto the Turkish vessel with grapnels; the enemy ship caught fire and then its powder ignited. It ex-ploded with such force that neighbouring Turkish vessels started to ignite, and soon the en-tire Turkish fleet was aflame. The Russians captured the 60-gun ship Rhodos and five galleys; by 9 a. m. the Turkish fleet had ceased to exist.

The Battle of Chesma was the decisive naval victory over the Ottoman Empire. Not counting the ships themselves, the Turks lost eleven thousand seamen. Russian losses totalled 534 seamen, the majority of whom perished aboard the Yevstafy.

For the victory at Chesma several seamen were awarded the Order of Saint George, created by decree of Catherine II on 26 November 1769: Captains Klokachev and Khmetevsky, Lieutenant-Commander Perepechin (of the Grom) and Lieutenant Ilyin. The Russian fleet now commanded the Aegean Sea, blocking all seaborne supply routes to the capital of the Ottoman Empire and raiding Turkish seaside fortresses. In November of 1771 the landing troops aboard Russian vessels set fire to an admiralty and two enemy ships of the line in Mitilen. In all, twenty ships of the line, based in the port of Aousa on Paros Island, were sent to the Mediterranean.

In July 1773, a detachment under Captain Ivan Kozhukhov, consisting of five frigates and fourteen smaller ships, landed troops at the fortress of Beirut. Russian forces besieged the town for over two months, capturing the fortress, two smaller galleys and 41 cannon and exacting a tribute of thirty thousand piasters. Since Beirut had traditionally helped fund the military efforts of the Turkish Sultan, his situation was now considerably weaker.

The battle for Patras and its capture was one of the most important Russian victories in the Mediterranean. On 28 October 1772, the unit of Captain Mikhail Konyaev, comprising two ships of the line and two frigates, destroyed eight Turkish frigates and eight shebekas defending the fortresses of Patras and Lepanto.

The triumphs of the Russian fleet in the Mediterranean Sea served to exalt Russia's stature among European nations. The growing respect accorded Russia was also a psychological incentive that Russia needed to defeat the indefatigable, and seemingly omnipotent, Turks. The prowess of Russia's ships demonstrated that Catherine the Great's efforts were not in vain and that, by continuing the maritime policies laid down by Peter I, she saw in Russia's maritime potential the glory and majesty of the Russian State."
From The History of Russian Navy.

Chesma and Patras

If someone as deeper information about the Turkish fleet ships and organization throughout the XVIIIth century, it will be helpful.

It is possible to add "branders", Flaviuss had done it for his Russian Army mod.
What could be great would be to create naval "coastal" battle, like in S2TW, but I don't know if it is possible.
For instance Chessma and Patras naval battles occurred near coast (bay, strait, etc.).

[Goutlard]

Hi,
I'll talk shortly about a more realistic balance for land units :
Mamelukes were nice horse soldiers, but limiting them to only one unit is unrealistic.
A light Mameluke unit [actual one] and an Elite Mameluke unit would be enough.

Janissaries :
The Janissary corp was pretty corrupted at the Time.
Proposal :
-Make one new Janissary unit, recreating the Beylik Janissaries as they are historically accurate, as an uncorupted old fashioned elite corp few in numbers [these are the Beys' guard units]
-Rename the Household Janissaries to a more historically correct name and slightly lower their stats and cost so that they represent the "Corrupted corp"

[Goutlard]

The Ottoman Empire has great new skins but I think it lacks the diversity of costumes and colors Janissaries had [Green, Blue and Red mainly] and the Ottoman Timarli Sipahis were still knight-like armoured units, wereas many other cavalry just stopped using armours as these became pretty uneficient [they can stop musket bullets, right, but these such armours really too expensive to equip most horsemen]

[Flikitos]

As I said to Don, I think that I will make a little sub_mod for Ottoman Empire. That faction really need to be review in order to see more exotism in Etw.

[Goutlard]

Thanks sir, you can have my help if you want, as I did a sub_mod to Ottoman Realism Mod, I didn't get the rights from Nizam to publish or whatever as I don't have yet enough models for all new units but I can help you for unit names [description maybe, but my English is sometimes just not enough], and editing the stats.

[Flikitos]

If you have pictures for documentation it would be enough I think, and a possible generic roster of the 18th century units!

[Keyser]

I posted this in the persian thread but there are a few glimpse at ottoman late troops too.
The mural paintings are from the late XVIIIth century.

Those posts in the vestigia vetustatis might interest you regarding the persian faction (as well as the ottoman in fact).

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...9#post10736539

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...2#post10736542

Those are murals from the Shaki khans palace in Azerbaïdjan and represent both sefevids and ottomans forces battling each other.

The palace was built in the late XVIIIth century and the opponents are probably represented according to contemporary fashion rather than historically, but that's still an interesting source. For later units style maybe.
The sefevids are represented like azerbaidjanis from the late XVIIIth for instance (furs hat, lot of firearms and "cherkesska" style dress) but also with other troops types and dress.