Sweden - Information & Discussion

[ErikBerg]

Oh, I am not a developer or modder, I'm only the (self-styled) historical researcher and advisor for Sweden!

I only know of a few admirals, but this list here should be helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Swedish_admirals
It's quite short, though, compared to the Swedish page.

Edit: I've attached the latest up-to-date Swedish roster.

[wangrin]

Nice roster.

Are you sure about howitzer ?
Few country really use howitzer during WSS/GNW.
I only found documents about Great Britain and united Province.

[ErikBerg]

Hmm. Actually, now that you mention it and I think about it, I've only seen or read about 8 pound howitzers from the late period. An honest oversight on my part. 16 pounders seem to have, overall, been the most common variety.

16 pound howitzers were present in the armory in the Great Northern War, at the very least. There were two 16 pound howitzers in the Swedish baggage at the battle of Poltava, together with 26 other pieces of artillery of varying sort and caliber, says Peter Englund in Poltava from 1988. Arthur Stille's Kriget i Skåne (The War in Scania) 1709-1710 from 1903 tells us of another two 16 pound howitzers present on the field at the battle of Helsingborg.

[wangrin]

I'm particularly interested if you have informations about artillery park composition during campaigns.

[ErikBerg]

What do you mean with 'artillery park composition'? What kind of pieces they brought with them on campaigns?

[wangrin]

Yes, this is exactly what I meant.
This is a good way to know what kind of calibers were used.

[ErikBerg]

Speed was crucial in the tactical doctrine of the Carolean army. This was reflected in the artillery park composition; lighter guns like 3 and 6-pounders were favoured above heavier guns like 12-pounders. Englund says 12-pounders were only used in exceptional cases (I'm guessing because of their weight, the barrel alone weighed 1.7 tons). In the battles of Klissow and Lesnaya, the artillery was composed of four and 16 3-pounders, respectively. At Poltava, four 3-pounders were committed to the actual battle, left in the camp were an additional 16 3-pounders and five 6-pounders. At Narva, Helsingborg and Gadebusch the artillery counted 37, 32 and 30 guns, respectively. Though I don't know the exact calibers, we can assume that the guns were light at Helsingborg and Gadebusch, as Cronstedt commanded the artillery in both engagements.

All in all, light guns were the norm in field battles. Charles XII felt that artillery in general wasn't very effective and mostly just slowed the infantry down, that it was only good for sieges and punching through narrow passages. The general Magnus Stenbock was of another opinion; if used well, artillery could determine the outcome of the battle, which is reflected in the comparatively higher number of guns in battles he commanded (Helsingborg and Gadebusch).

On heavy artillery, 24-pounders were reserved for fort batteries, it seems. When besieging Fredriksten in 1718, Charles XII had 18-pounders at his disposal. I am thinking that 24-pounders might be crossed off the roster, and reserved for ships and fortresses.

[PikeStance]

Oh, I am not a developer or modder, I'm only the (self-styled) historical researcher and advisor for Sweden!

I only know of a few admirals, but this list here should be helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Swedish_admirals
It's quite short, though, compared to the Swedish page.

Edit: I've attached the latest up-to-date Swedish roster.

\

Hey great attachment.

I was able to find some admirals and then some from your link. I am still looking however.
I also started to look for gentleman, ministers and theologians. Altogether I probably already have about 12- 15 collected.

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[wangrin]

Early Swedish artillery should be one of the most mobile available at the beginning of the campaign.

So, what can be done for early Swedish artillery :

3 and 6pdr :

• cheaper than other factions light artillery (to "force" AI to build them instead of heavier cannons)
• mobile artillery on the battlefield contrary to most other early cannons
• better movement points on campaign map contrary to other earlier light artillery (4/5 of infantry movement points instead of 3/5)

12pdr :

• used as siege artillery (need a new projectile (round shot) with greater effective range than other factions 12pdr) ?
• more expensive than other factions 12pdr cannons (to "force" AI to build light artillery instead of 12pdr cannons)
• as difficult to move as other factions heavy cannons (1/2 of infantry movement points)

What about mortars used ?


One of the idea I want to apply to I.S is about movement points.
Ideas :

1. movement points will increase form early to late era to reflect army increasing mobility, the biggest gap will be between middle and late era ;
2. early artillery should be mostly immobile on the battlefield but mobility should increase during mid and late
3. early era artillery was (very) difficult to move and considerably slow armies :
   
   • siege artillery : 30% of infantry movement points (cannon and mortars)
   • field artillery :
     
     • heavy field artillery : 40% of infantry movement points + immobile on the battlefield (12pdr, etc.)
     • medium field artillery : 50% of infantry movement points + immobile on the battlefield (9, 8pdr, maybe 6pdr, etc.)
     • light artillery : 60% of infantry movement points + immobile on the battlefield (4, 3pdr, coehorn, etc.) or mobile, depending of faction and caliber)
4. mid era artillery : slightly more mobile during campaign movement, more mobile on the battlefield
   
   • siege artillery : 35% of infantry movement points (cannon and mortars)
   • field artillery :
     
     • heavy field artillery : 45% of infantry movement points + mobile or immobile on the battlefield (12pdr, etc.), depend if faction had develop "train of artillery or not
     • medium field artillery : 55% of infantry movement points + mobile or immobile on the battlefield (9, 8pdr, maybe 6pdr, etc.), depend if faction had develop "train of artillery or not
     • light artillery : 70% of infantry movement points + mobile on the battlefield (4, 3pdr, coehorn, etc.)
     • horse cavalry : 80% of cavalry movement points + mobile on the battlefield (4, 3pdr) but only for faction that are able to develop horse artillery during mid era
5. late era artillery :
   
   • siege artillery : 40% of infantry movement points (cannon and mortars)
   • field artillery :
     
     • heavy field artillery : 60% of infantry movement points + mobile on the battlefield (12pdr, etc.)
     • medium field artillery : 80% of infantry movement points + mobile on the battlefield (9, 8pdr, maybe 6pdr, etc.)
     • light artillery : 90% of infantry movement points + mobile on the battlefield (4, 3pdr, coehorn, etc.)
     • horse cavalry : 80% of cavalry movement points + mobile on the battlefield (6, 4, 3pdr, 6 and 5^1/2 howitzer

The question is about 6pdr, should it be consider as light or medium field artillery.
Most of the time, it seems that only lighter guns (3pdr and 4pdr) are considered as light artillery or regimental artillery able to follow the infantry on the battlefield.

The other idea is about projectiles.
I have searched for informations about projectiles used, characteristics (range, misfire, etc.) but it seems that I didn't post results here...

[ErikBerg]

I like the ideas for the light guns. I'm not so sure about using 12-pounders as siege artillery, though. As they seem to have been rarely seen on the field (more often on sea) in the early period, wouldn't it be better to simply not have them until the mid period and keep 18-pounders as dedicated siege guns?

Information on mortars wasn't as easy to come by, field battles were more common than sieges in the GNW. The fortress Karlsvärd on Gotland had 40-pound mortars in the armory. There were 6-pound mortars in the Swedish camp at Poltava, and I have come across unconfirmed information that Charles XII had 36 and 75-pound mortars when besieging Fredriksten.

I know of two books about early Swedish artillery, Kungl. Artilleriet. Karl XI:s och Karl XII:s tid and Artilleriet under Karl XII:s-tiden, but alas I do not own them. I am planning to go to the library in Lund to see if they have one of them to find more information.

[wangrin]

The 6pdr mortar could be comparable to the English coehorn or to the French 4inch mortar.
Coehorn were small mortars that can be carried on the battlefield by 4 men.

[PikeStance]

Early Swedish artillery should be one of the most mobile available at the beginning of the campaign....

I have a couple of comments,...

When i did Civil War reenacting years ago, we had a 6 lb cannon and a couple of 12 lb (one was an original bronze Napoleon). (we also had a weir and a 3inch rifle)...anyway... Their was a big difference between a 6lb and 12 lb when had to move them from point to point. There was also other units that had smaller mountain artillery. Those were even easier to move around than the 6lb. Perhaps, if feasible, to have a "medium" artillery. Although, in the end, I think you can get away with a 6lb being "light."

Artillery Movement during the battle.
I always sort of annoyed me that "fixed" pieces existed in the game as if they magically appeared on the battlefield. I notice in some of my readings of battles of Marlborough he would often use "oxen" to place pieces into position. Would this be something that could be implemented in the game as opposed to the "fixed" artillery pieces. If "oxen" cannot be produce,... what about a few lethargic horses...LOL

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[ErikBerg]

The question is about 6pdr, should it be consider as light or medium field artillery.
Most of the time, it seems that only lighter guns (3pdr and 4pdr) are considered as light artillery or regimental artillery able to follow the infantry on the battlefield.

The other idea is about projectiles.
I have searched for informations about projectiles used, characteristics (range, misfire, etc.) but it seems that I didn't post results here...

As you say, the 3-pounders were the 'true' light artillery. 6-pounders were only 'comparatively' light, compared to a 12-pounder (total piece weight 1.2 tons for the former, 3.4 for the latter). They still needed six horses to move, but while on the march they could keep up with the infantry.

On projectile range, there is a list of different caliber of guns and their ranges here:
http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/sl_artilleri.htm
It is in Swedish, but luckily numbers are universal, it should be fairly clear to everyone. Hit Ctrl + F and search for "skottvidd", hit next to get to it.

[wangrin]

During early XVIIIth century, most guns were very difficult to move during the battle.
Most of the time, they were placed before the battle and didn't move from their and the one who loose the battle loose his artillery.
This is the reason why early artillery is considered as immobile on the battlefield.

Don't forget that early XVIIIth century were far heavier than late XVIIIth century ones.
Building lighter cannons (barrels and carriage) able to follow the infantry during campaign as well as during battle was one of the great improvement of the middle/late XVIIIth century (depending of factions, Prussian create a light and mobile artillery before the SYW when French develop it after SYW).



It will be difficult to represent oxen because it is not possible to add a new skeleton to ETW.
To do this, we will have to use existing skeleton, probably the horse one.
Moreover, we will have to modify animations to create our own for oxen.

[PikeStance]

During early XVIIIth century, most guns were very difficult to move during the battle.
Most of the time, they were placed before the battle and didn't move from their and the one who loose the battle loose his artillery.
This is the reason why early artillery is considered as immobile on the battlefield.

Don't forget that early XVIIIth century were far heavier than late XVIIIth century ones.
Building lighter cannons (barrels and carriage) able to follow the infantry during campaign as well as during battle was one of the great improvement of the middle/late XVIIIth century (depending of factions, Prussian create a light and mobile artillery before the SYW when French develop it after SYW).



It will be difficult to represent oxen because it is not possible to add a new skeleton to ETW.
To do this, we will have to use existing skeleton, probably the horse one.
Moreover, we will have to modify animations to create our own for oxen.

I cannot disagree with you, however;
I notice with reinforcements, so called "fixed" artillery are not part of the units. Armies of time, however difficult it was to move a piece would still bring them to battle. Moreover, if you going to shorten the range of the artillery, you may deemed artillery useless if they cannot be moved after deployment. I already fought one battle in which the AI deployed out of range.

LOL, I figured about the oxen. I would say.... really poky horses will do...LOL Seriously, I would say creating oxen would be super low priority!

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[wangrin]

On projectile range, there is a list of different caliber of guns and their ranges here: http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/sl_artilleri.htm
It is in Swedish, but luckily numbers are universal, it should be fairly clear to everyone. Hit Ctrl + F and search for "skottvidd", hit next to get to it.

Thanks for this excellent link

[ErikBerg]

My pleasure!

I've found another interesting table, this one is from Henry Waxberg's book Hästen i det karolinska rytteriet ('The Horse in the Carolean Cavalry') from 1973.

The title reads "Table 1, shows the percentage of different colours at some units around year 1715." The vertical words are colours, from left to right they read black, brown (bay) and chestnut followed by varying degrees of gray and other mixed colours. The numbers at the bottom are average percentages.



By and large, horses of dark colour were preferred. This was not only because of the desire for uniformity, but also because dark horses apparently had better traits than horses of lighter colours. By 1715 the army couldn't afford to be as picky when it came to horses, however, and had to resort to what was available to fill the ranks, which accounts for the presence of lighter colours in the table. The average percentage of black and brown horses at this point was 60.4. Earlier in the war, the percentage would be higher. An exception were the bugler/drummer horses which were white or gray.

A thing I found interesting is that even the Life Regiment of Horse (Livregementet in the table) was subject to the rule of dark horses. Otherwise in ETW, horse guard units have gray horses.

[wangrin]

Thanks again

Do you have this books : The Great Northern War 1700-1721 - Swedish Allies And Enemies - Colours and Uniforms, volume 1 and 2, by Lars-Eric Höglund and Agle Sallnäs

It could be useful if you could add pictures for each units of your roster, this will help to decide what model to use or create.

[ErikBerg]

Yes, I have two of the Swedish issues, the first one about Sweden and the second about Denmark-Norway and Holstein-Gottorp. Most of my research into early period Sweden is almost entirely based on those works!

I shall look around to see if I can find more pictures to fill any blanks that might still exist.

[Flaviuss]

Duplicated in this thread. Swedes and all I mailed vangrin master.

Early Dragoons for Europe. And I thought that different countries one type of early wage grenadier it - a little. I decided to make three types. Here, below, are presented. And for the colonies to be another type - Colonial (in a hat, with no miter).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Horse scorers for different Euro. Two additional grenadier, diluting the world starting early wage grenadier, again - dragoons. And that's the whole range of early volunteer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Swedes.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Swedes. Drabant and dragoons. Early.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Interface please do not consider. He's mods include not!