Sweden - Information & Discussion

[EgyptianNecrophiliac]

Hm.. is there no way to make larger regiments available for Sweden as they increase their territories?
Perhaps some large militia auxiliaries at least?

[elite_dannux]

Isnt the best option to make the units bigger with current stats and increase the cost by X%. Or perhaps better bayonet techs wich increases the melee bonus a bit more.

[The Vicar]

The best option? Probably not. The Swedes are nigh-unstoppable now once they hit your lines. If they were to have an extra 60 men per unit with the same stats, they'd be more than a little OP.

[elite_dannux]

Most likely.

Any thought how much the stats will be reduced?

[Unknown User]

While I understand the reason for changing the Swedish numbers (so that the darned AI knows how to use them...), playing as the Swedes, I absolutely love the difference.

[The Vicar]

So do I.

It pains me to have to do this, and that's why we keep putting it off, in (what appear to be ever-increasingly forlorn) hopes of finding a different solution.

[Unknown User]

I may be biased, but I guess in my mind it comes down to a matter of priority. Does enhancing the game of those fighting against the Swedes take priority over those playing the game AS the Swedes?

Also, keep in mind that, even if you change the unit numbers, the AI probably still won't use them for melee more than any other nation.

[The Vicar]

True, but at least they would be used in melee.

The behavior seems to be that, with all things being equal, Line Infantry fires 3-4 volleys and then charges. This occurs even with factions we'd prefer to not charge, and who have crappy melee capabilities, like Great Britain.

However, that doesn't happen with the Swedes. The only thing we can think is that it has to do with the unit sizes.

And to re-iterate, I keep putting it off. So just because I'm telling you guys that it'll probably happen, doesn't necessarily mean that it'll happen anytime soon. Mostly because I'm too busy making Bavaria, Hannover, and Saxony unique and playable and upgraded to major status.

[Pallantides]

Can Sweden recruit pikemen in this mod

[Ares1000]

I dont think so, strangely, but the reason for it is probably cause the pikemen cant use their pike's offensively, which is a shame and therefore cant represent the way sweden used them, and they wont fit into your offensive tactics which is the way swedish infantry should be used.

[Pallantides]

thats a shame

[Ares1000]

Would be awesome if we could use that formation and the pikemen would use their pikes when chargeing, outreaching the bayonet and decimating the first rank. Also great for defense as we can see, no cavalrymen in their right mind would attempt to charge into that.

[KemperBoyd]

I think that the lack of pikes in Swedish ranks doesn't really matter to be honest. According to most historical sources, cold weapons weren't really that effective and never amounted to much in combat, and contemporary sources regarding the swedish army seem to point towards the opinion that the pikemen weren't really appreciated either.

[ilikepie]

By 1700, the Swedish army was made up of musketeers.

I very much like Sweden. Though their armies are small, horse artillery used by them is absolutely deadly and their infantry is absurdly good in melee. I routed almost all of the infantry in an army using a charge from four Indelat infantry. Most of my use of their infantry involves marching close, firing a single volley (a shame you can't do a massed volley like you can in naval battles) and charging (which was exactly the same tactic the Swedes actually used). I suppose they do need some balance though.

[KemperBoyd]

By 1700, the Swedish army was made up of musketeers.

According to Peter Englund, at least up to 1709 a third of every company was armed with pikes. Sweden and Russia were the last countries in Europe to still use pikes in their armies.

[ilikepie]

According to Peter Englund, at least up to 1709 a third of every company was armed with pikes.

"Peter England" sounds like the name of Austin Powers's inner talk show host. I wouldn't trust him.

Just kidding. You win. Jerk. I guess we need to give a third of Swedish and Russian regiments those crappy pikes that don't do anything now.

[Ares1000]

I think that the lack of pikes in Swedish ranks doesn't really matter to be honest. According to most historical sources, cold weapons weren't really that effective and never amounted to much in combat, and contemporary sources regarding the swedish army seem to point towards the opinion that the pikemen weren't really appreciated either.

The lack of pikes doesnt really matter no, not the way they are functioning in the game.

When you got 2 ranks of pike's in your line and you charge that into the enemy line their gonna hit something, with the proper force you can even impale the first guy and hit the guy behind him.
Kinda like the macedonian phalanx vs the other greeks phalanx, longer reach means you can hit their guys before they can hit yours, they got guns ofc but the swedes got 2 ranks of musketeers infront of the pikemen so theirs a good chance most of the pikemen will hit the enemy line, so once in melee the pikemen delivers their pike's who now got the upper hand at hitting their first rank and maybe some of their second, before droping their pike's and moving in with swords.

Once the bayonett is introduced then the musketeer gets a larger role on the battlefield, no need for pikemen to protect them against cavalry, one third more men who can shoot= a lot more firepower and you can have longer thinner lines. Altough i bet some unlucky fellows who got charged down by cavalry just after the pikemen had been removed thought: damn! wish i had some pikemen in my ranks, this never happend when they were around.

Anyone know exactly when the bayonet was first in use all over europe ?, and why Sweden and Russia waited longer than the rest to get rid of them ?.

[KemperBoyd]

Anyone know exactly when the bayonet was first in use all over europe ?, and why Sweden and Russia waited longer than the rest to get rid of them ?.

The bayonet became common some time after the 1650'ties.

I assume you're talking about the Russian and Swedish use for pikes. It was probably a case of "wrong doctrine". There were still some pike proponents around in the 18th century, but they were a minority and research later on has proved that they were wrong, since compared to fire, cold weapons were distinctly less effective.

[Ares1000]

Thats earlier than i thought.

Yet the swedes made some impressive victories realying on cold steel, and fireing only once per musketeer. Suvorov also favored the bayonet.
I know Frederick the Great belived in the bayonet but changed his mind and found out that fireing volleys usually served him better.

[Smeel]

I'm not sure, but I think I'vre read something that the reason Sweden and and russia still used pikes where that they where very cheap to make? I mean, at least Sweden was piss-poor at the moment, don't know about russia, so it would make some sense at least.... Don't know though.