Poland- Lithuania - Information & Discussion

**wiskey78** · May 02, 2010, 08:55 PM

Poland Does seem a little overpowered in the campaign game to me as poland is almost always a regional super power. In my Swedish campaign for example she and Austria have partitioned Europe between them. She did quite well in for herself in my English campaign the only time i've seen Poland disappear is when i vanquished her myself with the Prussians, and this only happened because the Russians betrayed her. Basicly i think the polish balance issue has to do with having to many allies she has courland and Saxony as protectorates and then Russia as an ally. To much revenue and only one way to expand= death for Prussia. Though historically accurate for the Great Northern War the Russian alliance needs to be axed that alliance didn't last long anyway.

**grawien** · September 24, 2010, 08:29 AM

Poland is the best faction. They cavalry is awesome. But they are a little overpowered indeed.

**PikeStance** · September 24, 2012, 08:04 AM

Hey,

Here is yet another opinionated piece....This time I shall address Poland- Lithuania Commonwealth, henceforth referred to as the commonwealth.

The History of the commonwealth is very interesting indeed. Its source of unity was its very weakness which will lead to it recovery and eventual demise. The Commonwealth in many ways was progressive. It had a strong legislature system, Sejm, that restricted the powers of its executive leaders. Furthermore, it was a federalist system as well. Apart from Lithuania and Poland the common wealth offered a similar arraignment to the Ukrainians in the hopes of ending the dispute. However, while this may seems very unifying, the political reality was more discord than harmony.

In the mid 17th century, Charles X of Sweden took advantage of this discord and attacked the commonwealth. The commonwealth was all but conquered saved for a small resistance that had gained momentum do to Charles' policies. What started off as a small resistance to occupation turned into a popular uprising. In time, other foreign powers intervene on behalf of the commonwealth. After a protracted conflict the sides eventually settled and the commonwealth, for now, would be saved.

The latter half of the century we see a mixed results as far as gains/ losses in possessions. On the domestic front things continue to deteriorate. By the end of the 17th century the commonwealth on balance was smaller and more fractionated than at the beginning of the century. A notable ruler during this phase was John III (Jan III) from the influential Sobieski family. He checked Turkish expansion by becoming the "savior" of Vienna.

This leads us to the succession after the death of John III Sobieski in 1697. There were several candidates; François Louis de Bourbon supported by Louis XIV of France, there were the direct descendants of John, Jakub and Aleksander, then there was the eventual winner; Frederick Augustus I, Elector of Saxony. Jakub's election was undermined by his own mother, Marie Casimire, who favored her son-in- law, Maximilian II, The Elector of Bavaria. Aleksander elected to become a friar when his own bid failed. All of the surviving sons of John was imprisoned by Augustus. Francois was late arriving to Danzig. When he did arrive he was refused entry and returned back to France.

Image of John III Sobieski

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Images of the issues of John III

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

In the game, Empire, it had a difficult time rectifying the royal families. It took advantage of the numerical difference in Augustus' titles. Augustus was the "First" as Elector of Saxony, but the "Second" as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. They also used the same face, but change the wig color of the Augustus. Why do I mention this? The game, reluctantly admitted, would be better serve by keeping Saxony and the commonwealth separate. So, as the game correctly ignore that the UP and England was the personal Union of William of Orange until 1702, I see no reason to exert the same principal here. We know what happens to the commonwealth after Augustus assumes the crown. We also know under better leadership Poland can prosper. So what I propose is a change in the ruling house from Wettin to the House of Bourbon- Conde of France. Francois Louis de Bourbon ascends to thrown in 1697 instead of Frederick Augustus.

There obvious advantages is the line itself survives until 1814; spanning the duration of the game. It also eliminates Augustus playing a dual role in the game. Furthermore, offering the crown to a French nobleman is not unprecedented. Henry III of the House of Valois served temporary as King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. he was removed when his concentration was on increasing his power in France. Also, the line would receive a second offer later in the 18th century. This time, France did not lend it support and it never came to past.

The succession would like this;
+François Louis de Bourbon (actually elected, but usurped by Augustus)

Francois is also a notorious "playboy" more than likely would have agreed to the Polish and Lithuanian nobles demands. Also most likely dragged into the War of Spanish Succession as opposed to the Great Northern War. In any event, a less ambitious than Augustus.

Images of Francois and his wife, Marie Thérèse de Bourbon & their children

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

+Louis Armand de Bourbon, Prince of Conti

Images of the family

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

+Louis François de Bourbon, Prince of Conti (Polish Nobles offered the crown to him, but Louis XV undermined his candidacy)
+Louis François Joseph de Bourbon
This is the end of the line

Images of the last Two Generations

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I believe this is the best solution to problem of the "same" monarch ruling each possessions. No other line under consideration lasted more than a single generation.

I leave this for discussion....

----

**Herr Doctor** · November 16, 2012, 01:36 PM

Just wonder if anyone is working on the Polish units roster? And how the Polish and Lithuanian armies will be represented in game?

**wangrin** · November 16, 2012, 02:56 PM

I have enough documents to create a roster, but it is not the top priority.
In game, you will simply have Polish and Lithuanian units, some of them could be tied to an AoR and some other to Polish or Lithuanian buildings (polish_barrack or lithuanian_barrack for instance), I don't know.

**Herr Doctor** · November 16, 2012, 03:10 PM

Goody then. Wanted to voluntary but will just help you if it will be needed. If you will need any translations from Polish, Lithuanian, Russian or Belarusian just give me know.

May be just simply regional based units? "Lithuania" and "Belarus&Volhynia" on the map. I believe this should work and would be probably quite historical. The Lithuanian regiments should make probably about a bit less than 1/3 ratio (may be 1/4) of the Polish to represent the historical situation. For example in 1773 the Polish army stands to 22.000 and Lithuanian - 8.000.

**Herr Doctor** · November 16, 2012, 03:56 PM

I believe you should have this link? The first volume of the famous Jerzy Czerny's "Żołnierz Polski":
http://militarist.milua.org/zolnierz.../IMG_4423.html

Also quite rare brochure on the Polish-Lithuanian armies uniforms during the 18th century. It is quite new (2009) and quite small but at the same time very accurate and informative. I believe it should come handy:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

*If you will have any problems with the Polish rank system translation please give me know.

The information about the late Polish and Lithuanian army are wonderfully sorted with images per regiment in Polish wiki:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojsko_koronne
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_W...wa_Litewskiego

**wangrin** · November 17, 2012, 02:00 AM

Yes, I have "Żołnierz Polski", it was a very useful source.
Thanks for the "Barwa Wojska Rzeczypospololitej Obojga Narodòw w XVIII wieku", I had some extract from it and was searching for a more complete version.

The biggest problem is not with late army, but with early and particularly "middle" ones.
It is not an easy task to find pictures.

If you want to work on Polish-Lithuanian roster, it will save me time to work on models.
What is important when working on roster is to find picture(s) to "illustrate" each unit. This give an idea about models, if we will have to create a completely new one, if it is possible to adapt an existing one or if we can use an existing model without modification.
And finally, having an idea about how many models we will need and how much time it will (approximatively) need to create the complete roster.

Basically, to work on a faction we need :

the units roster, divide in 3 or 2 periods ;
pictures for each units
building chains
technology threes

I must said this is a lot of work, from search for historical sources, documents, pictures, etc., then synthesizing informations to finally create roster, building chains and technology threes.

About Poland-Lithuania, if Lithuanian unit will be available through an AoR, this will means that, if/when Poland-Lithuania expand, they will not be able to recruit Lithuanian units.
This can be a problem for gameplay.

It is not possible to limit recruitment using a "rate" between unit A and unit B (or between Polish units and Lithuanian ones).

As I explained it in Indian States - Gameplay Discussion, the recruitment system we are working on will be based on 2 or 3 "layers" :

building chains
faction permissions
A.O.R

Building chains :

each faction will have its own buildings, for instance :
- Great Britain will build gb_baracks, gb_military_school, etc
- France will build fr_barrack, fr_military_school, etc.
- Maratha will build mrt_barracks, etc.
<faction>'s unit will be available for <faction>'s building only, for instance :
- British units can be recruited only from British building chains (gb_barracks, etc.)
- French units can be recruited only from French building chains (fr_barracks, etc.)
- Maratha units can be recruited only from Maratha building chains (mrt_barracks, etc.)

Faction permissions & AoR :

Units will be of 3 categories :

units unique to <faction>, available only for this <faction> and only from <faction> building chain
- For instance "Gardes Françaises" are unique to France and only France can recruit them.
units specific to a <faction>, available to all factions or faction groups but only from <faction> building chains.
- For instance, French line infantry (a French unit) can be recruited by any faction that own a region with fr_barracks.
regional units, available to all factions or faction groups but only available for a limited area (regions), the Area of Recruitment

<faction> can be replace by any faction name from IS/ETW

Goals are :

to give the possibility to choose between "national integration" (colonization) by building your own buildings in the region or "federal system/client state" by keeping the old buildings (allowing you to recruit other faction units)
adding diversity in armies (not having only your "national" units
to avoid to create special unit (even cloned) to represent "volunteers" from occupied region (such as French volunteers if an other faction occupy an old French region with French buildings).

**Skillreaver** · November 17, 2012, 03:22 AM

Yeah - it would be amazing to see Poland reworked in a near future

Shame I don't have any idea about modding so to help you guys

But I'll try to find anything trustworthy and post it here.Here's what I found some time ago : https://sites.google.com/site/armeep...ogne-1697-1794 There are some pictures from an early\middle period but that's true - it's really hard to find anything even on polish sites...

**Herr Doctor** · November 17, 2012, 07:59 AM

A wonderful source with images on late Polish and Lithuanian uniforms:
http://wars175x.narod.ru/unf_pl.html#

Some more inserting sources from this wonderful blog:
http://rusmilhist.blogspot.com/

Information of the Polish-Lithuanian army numbers in 1717 and 1756:
http://rusmilhist.blogspot.com/2010/...56-report.html

Polish-Lithuanian grenadier plates (grenadiermütze):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Several more I found separately on the internet:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

*btw, perhaps it would make sense to make one or two regiments of magnate's militia?

And very interesting uniform illustrations made by the author of the above mentioned blog:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Some other intresting stuff:
http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/chr.../4,xviii-wiek/

I have also scanned some interesting things but I will upload a bit later today after some cleaning.

**Herr Doctor** · November 17, 2012, 11:05 AM

Some interesting things I scanned that could make a very nice details for the Polish-Lithuanian army if someone would pay attention to them when creating Polish units. I uploaded them both to photobucket and file hosting. The problem with photobucket is that it resized some images dramatically so I decided to upload it also here so you can have a better quality of them to work in the future:
http://www.mediafire.com/?hv1gqa11t9ljuaj

Some explanations with smaller images. Polish Husaria of the end of the 17th - early 18th century:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The Polish-Lithuanian army of the Saxon period:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Middle and later periods after the Wettins (1764-1795):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The kuntusz suits of the nobles that perhaps could make some good stuff for national cavalry officers:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And some Lithuania related stuff from other books:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**szwajcar** · November 17, 2012, 11:46 AM

Gret materials Herr Doctor! I think that the model of national cavalry can be to use the light reworked model of Legion de Dabrowski.

**079rtfgkljt90rgio** · November 17, 2012, 12:01 PM

Well, I think you have all the information you wanted. Less for the early uniforms, but Herr Doctor provided good intel on them!

Now for the 1750 period, looks like it's going to be a mix between the 1730s and 1760s period right? They share huge similarities in uniform and colours, am I wrong?

Late period is very interesting! Uniforms are so much different. There's a real gap in uniformilogy between the Saxon ear and the late era!

Well, I think sadly you gonna have to keep it that way for Lithuania as AOR units. Or they could become national units and be recruit even in Poland?

Very nice documentation Skillreaver and Herr Doctor + Rep

**szwajcar** · November 17, 2012, 12:11 PM

These are the models of Wangrin and Prison Neo that transformed my own use.
National Cavalry and late infantry (10 infantry regiment)

**Herr Doctor** · November 17, 2012, 12:38 PM

Very good units. I believe with some polishing would make wonderful national cavalry for later period.

Previously I discussed some issues of creating Polish units with Megasalexandros and A_Menzel and the opinion was that it would probably have sense to make them on pair with Prussian and naturally Saxon models, at last for the early models (prior to 1760s) as there were really a lot of similarities between them (especially between the armies of Friedrich Wilhelm and August II). So, I really hope that this could make work on Polish (and Saxon) units roster much easier.

**szwajcar** · November 17, 2012, 12:50 PM

Early Polish units based on the Saxon, not only cavalry (except guards and Dragoons). The reform of uniform was carried out in 1789.

**JanHetman** · November 22, 2012, 03:45 PM

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...6#post12267456

A lot of Polish units.

**Herr Doctor** · April 24, 2013, 02:20 PM

My work on the Polish roster:

*Some remarks:

I tried to keep it simple and short as possible. The only extensive part is the cavalry but I believe Poland deserved it.
The red means Lithuanian units (just those that could be labelled as "unique" or "special"). Ideally it would be nice to "double" the common units types (line infantry, grenadiers, national cavalry) both for Poland and Lithuania respectively. But I doubt if it is really worth the efforts.
You probably know that the early Polish husaria is not hussars in traditional sense, but more like "heavy cavalry"/cuirassiers type. The vanilla husaria unit in game is not that bad but it could be improved of course.
There are two alternative dates to base early units roster: 1717 and 1732. The first date looks like more logical but couple of units will be from 1732 because of the limited information.
Militia units are supposed to represent the private "domestic armies" of the magnates, and Kosciuszko's insurgents for late era.
The artillery is just for basic information as this matter is very complicated. It is based on the early 1700s inventories of the Crown's army arsenals. But I think the artillery types of Poland-Lithuania were very close to that of Austria, Russia or other regional powers. It would be cool however if you can make one or two cannons with Polish insignia.
I believe it would be wise to make Polish units together with Saxon as their early and middle periods' units are very similar.

The uniforms information, mainly based on my previous posts in this thread:

Early:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Middle:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Late:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**intel** · April 24, 2013, 03:39 PM

1. Kawaleria Narodowa as uniform, single unit
There was a clear division between Towarzysz of Kawaleria Narodowa and Pocztowy of Kawaleria Narodowa.

Though old structure and organisation of cavalry was changed, old division between Towarzysze (Comrades) and Pocztowi (closest translation: Henchmen) was kept. The difference was mainly in armnament and uniform. N.C.'s uniform was a new quality in polish national uniform, influencing not only uniforms of Polish troops during Napoleonic Period, but also Uhlan's. While Towarzysze were armed with lances, Pocztowi were armed and dressed in almost identical manner as the Comrades, with few exceptions, such as carbine replacing the lance, red trousers with white stripes and different hat.

**Herr Doctor** · April 24, 2013, 04:04 PM

Thanks. You know there were much more ranks in the regiments all across the Europe in contrast to the four ("officer", "standard-bearer", "musician" and "private") represented in game, if not to mention that infantry regiments in the region (Sweden, Russia) were not a "single type units" in ETW game classification but historically included musketeers, fusiliers, grenadiers, sappers, sometimes even engineers and gunners (some guard regiments). But I am ok naturally if the IS guys would represent National cavalry and "Advanced guard" not with single but with two separate units (lancers and carabineers/dragoons), for example.

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