Prussia - Information & Discussion

[Lazy Knight]

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RotR faction description by Cro_Hunger999:

King Frederick the Great is old and dying and so is the Prussian army. An army said to possess a state is in need of reform. Will Prussia live on its past glory and watch as the Habsburgs take a firmer grip on the Holy Roman Empire and expand to the west, or will it, perhaps, gamble for supremacy and unite the small German states under its leadership? You already have the support of some of them, such as Saxony, Hesse-Kassel and Hanover. The recent War of the Bavarian Succession was just a taste of Joseph II's ambitious plans.

The alliance with Russia is severely weakened by the Austro-Russian alliance made two years before. Catherine the Great obviously has other plans and is, together with Joseph II, considering wiping out the Ottoman Empire from the map, so an alliance with the Sultan would prove wise in order to keep the balance of power. Britain is currently without any major allies and is seeking new ones, threat from the expanding Russian Empire is a common problem. Also, be sure to protect Prussian interests in the collapsing Polish Commonwealth, otherwise Russia might take everything for themselves.

Due to Prussia's geopolitical position, Frederick maintained throughout his whole reign a policy of investing everything in the army and leaving very little for the navy explaining it by saying: "It is better to have the best army in Europe, than the worst navy in the Baltic."; so you will have to rely on friendly relations and alliances with other naval powers, namely Great Britain, the Dutch Republic and the Kingdom of Denmark, to ensure yourself from an attack by sea. Russia and Sweden are on the brink of war so use this to your advantage or even join Sweden against Russia.

Europe is shaken by the recent revolution in the American colonies, the people are on their feet, powers are shifting and new alliances are being formed. It is inevitable Prussia will be involved, in one way or another.

Prussia
Prussia's infantry is well known to be the fastest shooting and best trained line infantry in Europe.

Prussia is focused on its infantry, and they can rely on them to be the best shooters. However Prussia is small and so are its regiments. An experienced General will back up its line with Cavalry, which is inspired by Polish Hussars and Uhlans, and Artillery, which is average quality. Light infantry is not valued by Prussia, so it is not as strong as the rest of the army.

The Army with a State

We all know and love Prussia, and indeed it has always provoked much attention and curiosity during this time because of its unique nature. Prussia was a small state, population-wise, yet fielded an army several times the size of what conventional wisdom says should have been possible. And not only that, but it managed to do so while retaining a superior training regimen to most contemporary nations.

Bearing these things in mind, and looking at what the Prussians were known for historically, the new Prussia in Imperial Splendour 2.1 will be focused around a couple key gameplay elements:

1. Iron Discipline - Prussian Troops will possess a superior morale.
2. Fast Shooting - Prussian Line Infantry will fire 4 shots per minute. This places her as the premier "shooty" faction.
3. High Cost - Prussia has a small population. Her army cost her more, on average, than other nations. There will be a couple of ways to offset this. The first way is through the use of her God-granted leadership. She starts the game with a King that grants a reduction in unit costs, and a Minister of the Army that similarly grants a reduction in costs. Additionally, there are two new technologies that are exclusive to Prussia.

New Technologies:

1. Lightening of the Horse - Early in the century Prussia relied on, and was known for, huge horses. Frederick the Great called them "giants on elephants." While surely a magnificent sight on the battlefield, the truth of the matter was that the cost for maintaining such beasts in no way reflected their actual performance. Frederick therefore turned to lighter "Polish" and "Balkan" horses, mounts that could get the job done sufficiently, and yet cost a substantial amount less.
2. Foreign Recruitment Drives - Ever short of manpower, one of the methods that Frederick the Great devised to supplement his military was to recruit from foreign nations. As opposed to contemporary states of the time, Frederick did not create entire foreign regiments as such, but rather distributed these soldiers-for-hire throughout his already-established Prussian regiments. The recruitment drives were a huge success, and by the time of his death fully 1/3 to 1/2 of the military was composed of non-Prussians.

The New Roster

Infantry:

• Garnisoninfanterie - Garrison Infantry
• Linieninfanterie - Line Infantry
• Garnison-Grenadiere - Garrison Grenadiers
• Grenadiere - Grenadiers
• Füsiliere - Fusiliers
• Feldjäger-Corps zu Fuss - Jäger (lit. Huntsmen/Hunters) - Riflemen
• Frei-Korps - Free Corps (mercenaries)
• Frei-Jäger - Jäger of the Free Corps
• Grenadiere-Garde-Bataillon - Grenadier Guard
• Regiment-Garde - Guard Regiment - The 2nd & 3rd Battalions of the 15th Infantry Regiment
• Leib-Garde - Life Guard - The 1st Battalion of the 15th. The most prestigious infantry unit in the Prussian army

Cavalry:

• Frei-Dragoner - Dragoons of the Free Corps
• Dragoner - Dragoons - Not really dragoons, as they don't fight dismounted. They are rather the Prussian equivalent of Regiment of Horse - Standard Cavalry
• Frei-Husaren - Hussars of the Free Corps
• Husaren - Hussars - Light Cavalry
• Bosniaken - Bosniaks - Lancer Cavalry
• Kürassiere - Cuirassiers - Heavy Cavalry
• FeldJäger-Corps zu Pferde - Mounted Jäger - Dismountable Riflemen
• Leibregiment zu Pferde - 3rd Cuirassier Regiment - Life Regiment of Horse
• Leib-Carabiniere - 11th Cuirassier Regiment - Life Carabiniers
• Garde du Corps - 13th Cuirassier Regiment
• Leib-Husaren - 2nd Hussar Regiment - Life Hussars
• Totenkopf-Husaren - 5th Hussar Regiment - Death Head Hussars - This is a Special-Forces only unit. I'm just including it here for the sake of completeness
• der ganze Tod Husaren - 9th Hussar Regiment - The Whole Death Hussars

[the42up]

A few thoughts on prussia-

Their line infantry is spectacular. I am talking about their bread and butter line infantry. The only problem is that it takes 3 turns to recruit. Now this is all fine...except for the precarious situation prussia finds itself in at the start of the game. Not only this, the extra cost and upkeep is brutal to the small prussia economy at the start.

Its almost a dice throw at the start. Does poland and austria tag team you or do they not? If its just one, then you can survive and eat up one of them.

But this isnt the end of it. The cost to reinforce your army is out of this world.

The sad thing is, though, once you have eaten up either poland or austria and have a nice bit of income, nothing can stand to a prussian army. And thats when you just start on the steamroll and dont get off. In this, the prussians have one of the most pronounced late vs early games where the early is one of the roughest parts and the late is smooth sailing like no other.

A prussia army composed of infantry with a few elites, a contingent of their unique light cav and maybe a couple of cannons, can take on a force much larger than their own. (my best battle was against a hannover who had grown to 5 provinces, swallowing all the other german minors. My force of about 2000 prussians (no cannons) mauled through 3 full stacks of about 6000. Now granted the AI is stupid...and I was facing an unending stream of light cav and irregulars, the battle was rather impressive.)



Other than that, Prussia just feels right. You dont have to tech up to nab elites b/c the bread and butter infantry do the job just nicely. Not to mention, once the jaeger and unique light cav come onto the scene, your army becomes a real joy to play (as in you can use a true combined arms approach).

[Swerg]

Simple recipe for victory with Prussia:
3 line infantry and maybe a general
Stack them in the corner of the map. Wait for the enemy to charge.
Prussia's rate of fire means that, on average, they'll get in THREE volleys before the enemy can close to range. And one of those is generally when the enemy is about two feet away.

Rank fire = Nightmare mode
It's like a freaking MEATGRINDER.

Maybe a SLIGHT rate of fire reduction is in order? Prussians SHOULD fire faster, but I don't think they should turn into machine guns with rank fire mode.

[Society]

Each rank takes 16 seconds to reload. What's the problem?

[The Vicar]

Maybe a SLIGHT rate of fire reduction is in order? Prussians SHOULD fire faster, but I don't think they should turn into machine guns with rank fire mode.

The Prussian infantry is a bit OP with the new projectiles we introduced, yes.

However, I'm going to keep them the fastest-shooting faction in the game, so in further tweaks expect a reduction in accuracy as opposed to reload speed.

[the42up]

in terms of game balance, is it terrible for prussian to have strong infantry? Other than that, they are fairly average and are stuck in a pretty weak starting point.

Pen and paper, prussia seems strong, but with the whacky AI...not so much in practice where little prussia gets swarmed.

[The Vicar]

They will continue to have strong infantry.

It's a fine line between having something strong, and having something simply overpowered.

[Liquidj]

I got a question about Linieninfanterie(short for Lin) vs. Füsiliere(short for Fus). In 2.04, Lin has average better shooting accuracy, reload speed and melee skill than Fus. I guess I can understand 3 turns recruiting for Lin and one turn for Fus. In 2.1 both of them has good shooting accuracy and reload speed. Just Fus now has better melee skill than Lin, both of unit needs 3 turns to recruited. I think it take a bit longer time than other faction. I will like to know if that was make for balancing the game or historical accuracy?

[The Vicar]

I guess I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

According to the stats I'm looking at, Fusiliers have a higher accuracy and reload with worse melee stats.

They are, in other words, more shooty than regular line infantry.

[the42up]

I guess I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

According to the stats I'm looking at, Fusiliers have a higher accuracy and reload with worse melee stats.

They are, in other words, more shooty than regular line infantry.

Is there a reason for this?

Were not fusiliers more along the lines of light infantry for prussia rather than just more "elite" infantry as they were in other nations?

Either way, I find myself hardly ever using fusiliers. Getting stomped in hand to hand combat by nearly every other line infantry (including militias) is not worth the slight upgrade in shooting prowess.

[Moorish guy]

all hail the great bavarin overlords

[the42up]

I thought I would expound a bit more on fusiliers

Their main problem is their abhorrent ability in melee. I know this is to balance them as a more shooting oriented line infantry, but with prussia's smaller regiments coupled with a standard ammo, I find myself losing to russian militia in shoot outs...

In general, they force a prussian general to rely more on cavalry rather than infantry (such that you MUST keep your infantry out of melee or it will die).



I find this very awkward as prussia. Perhaps a bit more melee defense is in line for the prussia fusiliers?

[Ahiga]

To clarify at least the historical context of Fusiliers in Prussia's army at this time, I believe the whole notion of Fusiliers being Light infantry (and light infantry being truly "Infantry who are light", rather than entirely skirmisher based troops) is a Napoleonic/19th century invention. Either Fusiliers were the regular line (Spain, France), or in the case of Prussia it seems to point to Fusiliers being second-grade troops who didn't have the height requirements of the Musketeers. This is why they wore mitre caps and were nicknamed or armed with 'smaller' fusils.

I don't know how they are cast right now for sure, but in my never to be humble opinion I would have Fusiliers be the levy line - cheaper, full sized, but far from Prussian shooty-shooters. They shouldn't excel in melee, because they are puny weak girly-men who do not meet the height requirements of being a EAT IRON AND STEEL ARYAN GOD OF WAR. And I would know, since I am brethren to the puny fusiliers.

[JMSlayer]

EAT IRON AND STEEL ARYAN GOD OF WAR.

Y'know, I'm sad to say that this made me research what other element was combined with iron to make steel alloy.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Carbon, in case anyone was wondering.

[Ares1000]

The Prussian infantry is a bit OP with the new projectiles we introduced, yes.

However, I'm going to keep them the fastest-shooting faction in the game, so in further tweaks expect a reduction in accuracy as opposed to reload speed.

The Prussians under Frederick the Great and probably before that actually shoot more accurate than the Austrians and could fire 3 times as fast on the battlefield, the reason for the accuracy was that the Prussians accounted for the recoil, so they would aim or point low, if i remember right about 10 feets infront of the enemy line, so you wouldent get as much overshooting as you see in the game.

[The Vicar]

That's funny.

Actually, there was very little aiming that was done on the battlefield, in general. Not by any nation's Line, not even Frederick the Great's Prussia.

There are as many shots that fall in front of the enemy unit in this game as there are that go over their heads. Zoom in close sometime and you'll see what I'm talking about. You just miss the tracer effects due to the short length of the bullet path.

As far as 3 times as fast goes, that depends on which sources you believe. The only way it's possible is if:

1) Austrian troops could only shoot 2 volleys per minute.
2) The Prussians could attain 7 volleys per minute (which has been claimed). However, it is readily admitted by everybody that 7 rounds per minute can only be done (if at all) under the best of conditions, what is regularly called Parade-Ground Drill. The differences between the Parade-Ground and the Battlefield are, of course, quite large.
3) We are not comparing Prussian Parade-Ground Drills to Austrian Field Performance.

If we believe everything we read, we'd have the Prussians at 7 volleys per minute and the Russians at 11 (as there are sources claiming they could go 3 volleys for every 2 of the Prussians in the Seven Years War). This is of course nonsense. Nobody can fire a musket every 5 1/2 seconds.

[Ares1000]

That's funny.

Actually, there was very little aiming that was done on the battlefield, in general. Not by any nation's Line, not even Frederick the Great's Prussia.

There are as many shots that fall in front of the enemy unit in this game as there are that go over their heads. Zoom in close sometime and you'll see what I'm talking about. You just miss the tracer effects due to the short length of the bullet path.

As far as 3 times as fast goes, that depends on which sources you believe. The only way it's possible is if:

1) Austrian troops could only shoot 2 volleys per minute.
2) The Prussians could attain 7 volleys per minute (which has been claimed). However, it is readily admitted by everybody that 7 rounds per minute can only be done (if at all) under the best of conditions, what is regularly called Parade-Ground Drill. The differences between the Parade-Ground and the Battlefield are, of course, quite large.
3) We are not comparing Prussian Parade-Ground Drills to Austrian Field Performance.

If we believe everything we read, we'd have the Prussians at 7 volleys per minute and the Russians at 11 (as there are sources claiming they could go 3 volleys for every 2 of the Prussians in the Seven Years War). This is of course nonsense. Nobody can fire a musket every 5 1/2 seconds.

The most convincing body of evidence is probably given by the Austrian officers who observed Frederick's army at the height of its powers in 1757.

Not only was the quantity and quality of the powder in the Prussian musker cartridge superior to the Austrian, but the bluecoats held their fire to more realistic ranges: The Prussian infantry do not open fire until they have advanced to within 70 or 80 paces of the enemy infantry; against an attack by enemy cavalry, however, they protect themselves by opening up earlier with the Heckenfeuer. Measured against the rate of fire in real battle, as opposed to the artificial minute fire in peacetime the Prussians still had the important and extraordinarily significant advantage of being able to get off three rounds to every one of the Austrian infantry. This is conceded by all impartial and well-informed men who have seen it with their own eyes.
When most foreign observers laughed at the way the Prussian infantry seemed to be trained to fire into the ground, our Austrian informants discovered why and how things were done this way, Their own troops aimed at the middle of the body, which made sense in immediate ballistic terms, but failed to allow for the upward kick of the musket upon discharge, and this is why the first rank of the Prussian infantry aims as low as if it wished to fire 10 or 12 feets into the ground in front of them, and the rearward ranks proportionately higher... to accustom our men to fire in real combat, we ought to issue every man with three rounds of ball ammunition a week to fire at a target, which is what they do in the Prussian service with all the new soldiers and recruits.

Prussian troops in battle didnt fire 7 volleys ofcourse, what they did fire was 4-5 at Mollwitz in 1741, but rarely or never thereafter, 3 rounds or a bit better was the Prussian average in combat after Mollwitz while in peacetime drill they performed 4 rounds or better, the reason is loss of good men who has been trained for a long time and that things doesnt go as smooth in battle as in peacetime drill and certently not for the Austrians either which is why their fire was as low as 1 round or slightly better a minute, if we are to belive well-informed men who have seen it with their own eyes.

So when you read accounts of what troops could fire a minute their probably taken from peacetime drill, while in combat your scared and shaky and cant performe as well, which is also why i think many units might need a lowering in firerate.

[Lucan]

To clarify at least the historical context of Fusiliers in Prussia's army at this time, I believe the whole notion of Fusiliers being Light infantry (and light infantry being truly "Infantry who are light", rather than entirely skirmisher based troops) is a Napoleonic/19th century invention. Either Fusiliers were the regular line (Spain, France), or in the case of Prussia it seems to point to Fusiliers being second-grade troops who didn't have the height requirements of the Musketeers. This is why they wore mitre caps and were nicknamed or armed with 'smaller' fusils.

I don't know how they are cast right now for sure, but in my never to be humble opinion I would have Fusiliers be the levy line - cheaper, full sized, but far from Prussian shooty-shooters. They shouldn't excel in melee, because they are puny weak girly-men who do not meet the height requirements of being a EAT IRON AND STEEL ARYAN GOD OF WAR. And I would know, since I am brethren to the puny fusiliers.

Yeah, that is what I've gathered from reading Armies of the Napoleonic Wars. More militia than line. In other words, they should be inferior in everything compared to Prussian (or most Western nation's) line.

[Ares1000]

The Prussian fusiliers were a lightweight infantry, fighting in mass formation like the rest of the line infantry, but drawn principally from newly-acquired provinces where the men did not have the loyalty or physical stature of people like the Pomeranians or Brandenburgers. Such at least was the outlook of Frederick. He inherited four rather good regiments of fusiliers, which he promtly converted into regiments of musketeers, and he designated as fusiliers only sixteen or so regiments which he raised after he conquered Silesia. Taking account of their small stature, Frederick issued them with short muskets, and game them scaled-down metal-fronted grenadier caps which made them appear more fearsome in battle. The headgear certainly looked impressive eough, when the sun shone on such a battalion of fusiliers and game them the appearance of a row of fiery palisades. Even as seen from behind the caps had a lively look, thanks to the coloured cloth which covered the crown.

A French observer noted how the Cantonal authorities selected the best set-up youths, remarking that all the fusilier companies would be good enough to form fine companies of grenadiers in our own army.

From The Army of Frederick the Great second edition.

So they definetly should have lower melee stats which they also have in IS but maybe not to low either, if they were good enough for the French grenadiers how small could they have been really ?, or are the French standards low , they might not all have been small people but just cause their foreigners they might have been put there. dont think i would call them second rate soldiers tho, Garrison troops are second rate soldiers and they were better than them, and the fusiliers probably had the same training as the line infantry, so cant be much worse at shooting, all comes down to training length i would say. altough the foreign fusiliers probably didnt have as high morale as Prussians did.

[The Vicar]

The most convincing body of evidence is probably given by the Austrian officers who observed Frederick's army at the height of its powers in 1757.

Not only was the quantity and quality of the powder in the Prussian musker cartridge superior to the Austrian, but the bluecoats held their fire to more realistic ranges: The Prussian infantry do not open fire until they have advanced to within 70 or 80 paces of the enemy infantry; against an attack by enemy cavalry, however, they protect themselves by opening up earlier with the Heckenfeuer. Measured against the rate of fire in real battle, as opposed to the artificial minute fire in peacetime the Prussians still had the important and extraordinarily significant advantage of being able to get off three rounds to every one of the Austrian infantry. This is conceded by all impartial and well-informed men who have seen it with their own eyes.
When most foreign observers laughed at the way the Prussian infantry seemed to be trained to fire into the ground, our Austrian informants discovered why and how things were done this way, Their own troops aimed at the middle of the body, which made sense in immediate ballistic terms, but failed to allow for the upward kick of the musket upon discharge, and this is why the first rank of the Prussian infantry aims as low as if it wished to fire 10 or 12 feets into the ground in front of them, and the rearward ranks proportionately higher... to accustom our men to fire in real combat, we ought to issue every man with three rounds of ball ammunition a week to fire at a target, which is what they do in the Prussian service with all the new soldiers and recruits.

Prussian troops in battle didnt fire 7 volleys ofcourse, what they did fire was 4-5 at Mollwitz in 1741, but rarely or never thereafter, 3 rounds or a bit better was the Prussian average in combat after Mollwitz while in peacetime drill they performed 4 rounds or better, the reason is loss of good men who has been trained for a long time and that things doesnt go as smooth in battle as in peacetime drill and certently not for the Austrians either which is why their fire was as low as 1 round or slightly better a minute, if we are to belive well-informed men who have seen it with their own eyes.

So when you read accounts of what troops could fire a minute their probably taken from peacetime drill, while in combat your scared and shaky and cant performe as well, which is also why i think many units might need a lowering in firerate.

I do not dispute the 4 rounds per minute figure, which we have implemented into the game. However, we will in no form or fashion drop the Austrians to 1 volley per minute. That figure is something close to ludicrous, and if it is true, can only be explained by a lack of paper cartridges, as it can take close to a minute if you are using a powder horn.

I also find it rather incredible that you're claiming they aimed. Nobody aimed. Especially not at 4 volleys/minute. They point. They present. They do various things, but they do not aim. Not like we think of it today.

And while you claim they were trained to "aim" low, another explanation could be that they had the heaviest and longest muskets of the era, which a person who is not aiming might naturally be inclined to let droop a little.

The Prussians in this game are and will continue to be represented by having the best time per volley. But we will not make them some sort of supermen who also have good melee and better-than-average accuracy. That isn't the way games work, sorry. We won't do it with Prussia and we won't do it with Great Britain, which seem to be the two factions that people most desire given superman status.