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  1. #1

    Default My first try - but not the last.

    Hey I finally got around to trying out this mod, now that I'm finished with ETW.

    My first impressions are good, nice looking units, good map, and those details such as videos etc. makes this probably the best total conversion mod I've seen in the total war games.

    I've started with Gondor, but played on M/M since I usually don't care for the AI getting too much bonuses, especially the 10k per turn on VH. Maybe that makes my game too easy but no matter.

    I've expanded a bit in the beginning, and noticed that Gondor has a steady income, a pretty large empire that could be very rich, possibility to get huge cities very quickly (Osgilliath) and a kickass citadel of Minas Tirith. It also seemed to be pretty well proteced with it's ally in the north, and "only" Mordor and Harad to worry about in the east. A bit later in the game I noticed to my pleasure that Corsairs (harad) had attacked me from the south, and captured one of my cities! I thought this was once of the fabled naval invasions, but it turned out to be a land bridge. Oh well, at least it works, although it means most attacks towards Minas Tirith comes from the south and not the east as in the books.

    Otherwise the Gondor rooster is very good - cheap swordsmen, decent and armored cavalry, armored archers. Even all the militia variants are good enough to form an army, and after some major battles I have defeated armies from all the evil factions (while I defended Rohan), and even brokered cease-fires with all save Harad (they refused, possibly for actually making it hard on me). It's a bit silly that Mordor agrees to a cease-fire, as there would probably be little incentive for Sauron to do so (or the Witch King). Still, easily fixed with a house rule, and the AI is often relucant to initiate cease-fires anyway.

    Now I do have a few issues, some that may be resolved by sub-mods:

    1. Sauron hates Rohan. Yeah I know he would want to rule any man including northmen, but really wasn't he suppose to hate Dunedain over all? In which case you would think Gondor, especially Minas Tirith and Osgillith would be the prime targets. Still in my game He has declared invasion on Edoras once (success but I recaptured it and liberated it) and Hornburg twice! Even when at war with Mordor they never even attacked beyond Dagorlad and North Ithilen, and they don't dare to attack Osgilliath with it's huge walls more than once. Is there some way to make the Dark Lord favor Gondorian cities, especially Minas Tirith and Osgilliath?

    2. Trolls, Mumakils and Ringwraiths may be powerful (only fought trolls so far). But other than that, the orcish factions seems fairly weak. Yeah they have large units, but that just gives my superior Gondorians more xp when they totally destroy the orcish units. Even worse, I've found no evidance of standard cavalry in these armies not even warg riders (which would make sense). The Ringwraiths may have awesome cavalry, but they are few and far between, while the Uruk bodyguards are no match for a cavalry charge by even Gondorian captains. I now the battles against evil are supposed to be epic and the good forces were often outnumbered in the books/films, but it becomes silly that 3000 orcs who live only for battle and violence have no chance at all against 1000 gondorian militia! Thus most of my "heroic victories" are merely the inevitable slaughter of orcs by arrows and cavalry charge, ending with them breaking totally. Besides I dislike the concept in this game that orcs are always stupid, physically weak, without cunning and te ability to craft, and generally unfit for battle except to die in droves! That's not how tolkien picture them, he described them as warlike, with long strong ape-like arms, and excellent abilities to craft effective, if crude, weapons and armor. They were even especially skilled at creating complex and viscous decices of war, such as crossbows and siege engines (though never as good as dwarves or elves in crafting).

    So in short, better orcs, warg cavalry and possibly other units to replace horse cav in evil armies, and maybe a reduction in orc unit sizes.

    3. Some factions seems to have been merged together, either becoming too big (harad), or too divided (Noldor).

    4. Dol Guldur was the abode of Sauron himself. Although never as huge and awesome as Barad-Dur, it should still be something more than wooden-walled city. A castle at the very least. In fact, it was Sauron's plan that while hige forces were arrayed against Gondor, forces from Dol Guldur would attack and destroy the elves in northern Mirkwood and even Lothlorien. So in other words this settlement should be very signfificant.

    5. After conquering most of Harad I notice they lack any good size cities. At least Umbar and the Haradrim capitol should be large. Also, I can't see if they have any Castles/Keeps at all.

    6. Time scale. The war of the ring seem to start right off the bat while in canon it would still be a generation until Mordor would occupy Osgilliath and threaten Gondor. I suppose the few years in the actual war would be too quick to have a satisfying campaign, but most seem to be settled long before Frodo is born. Also, the Gondorian succession line is wrong, and Denethor seems to have neither Boromir nor Faramir as sons. Is there no way to keep it from being random in name? Also, after the initial ruler I can't see any famous person having a biography in the traits.

    6. Some traits seems to be over abundant. My people are woefully ignorant, and the aggressive commanders get high dread scores. Yeah i guess this is a M2TW problem, but it's a bit hard to play "alignment." Doing something in between (killing orcs while sparing men for instance) only means respect/dread will stay close to balanced, this losing out of the bonuses of either. Besides ransoming or even freeing orcs doesen't seem like common practice to even the good factions. i could see having the entire ransom system done with anyway, although I like it in vanilla MTW.

    Well that's all for now. I consider trying the many factions submod, but I don't want to change too much. The RR/RC mod are supposed to make the elves and dwarves alot more badass than now, and maybe even making orcs even worse so I don't think I'll try that yet. But feel free to convice me otherwise.

  2. #2

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    If you wanted more factions then you should definetly try the Divide And Conquer mod. It offers lots of new factions such as lindon, dol guldor as its own factions, the dunedain and the corsairs

    However that is still in early stages of development( I think) and a few factions have similar roster.

    There are other sub-mods that offer a variety of new features. My personal favourite is Sgawara Unit Add-on mod.
    Lots of new units, and he is adding a Vale Of Anduin Faction( I think(again))
    He is still working at giving the factions even larger rosters

    It is up to what you want really, have a look in the submod section and skim read them
    Hoped i helped

    Best Regards
    Edward

  3. #3

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArtfulDodger View Post
    If you wanted more factions then you should definetly try the Divide And Conquer mod. It offers lots of new factions such as lindon, dol guldor as its own factions, the dunedain and the corsairs

    However that is still in early stages of development( I think) and a few factions have similar roster.

    There are other sub-mods that offer a variety of new features. My personal favourite is Sgawara Unit Add-on mod.
    Lots of new units, and he is adding a Vale Of Anduin Faction( I think(again))
    He is still working at giving the factions even larger rosters

    It is up to what you want really, have a look in the submod section and skim read them
    Hoped i helped

    Best Regards
    Edward
    Yeah reccomendations are always good. However I'm a bit weary of testing too many submods because I'm not sure how they'll change gameplay. Divde and Conquer seems neat, but does to do anything but divide the factions and make them playable (balance them somewhat)? i don't want them to change much else.. such as making Invasions Jihads instead of Crusades. Hmm btw why do some think Invasions are bad? My only gripe with them so far is that they target Rohan too much, but that might just be random. Also, it would be nice to be some way for the evil factions to bribe/brownnose Sauron like we can with the pope in M2TW. How does this mod handle it and why is it better? I read something about it making Mordor controlled by Sauton directly...

  4. #4
    Louis Lux's Avatar Into the Light
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    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    DAC has as a overall goal to offer more unique gameplay, it probably changes quite a few things. Making the invasions Jihads make them be more random, you won't get Edoras being targeted first at every game.

    These are probably from playing at medium difficulty, the orcs are kind of weak but the trolls make up for it, huge stacks with several troll units can be really challenging. Invasions will be targeted at you but invasions usually target Rohan for some reason, I think it's a 50% chance you will be targeted and 50% Rohan will be targeted. If you don't retake the invaded settlements I think there will be more chance you're going to be invaded next.

    Sauron left Dol Guldur after the events of the hobbit and increased his activity which is basically what happens in the mod, Mordor can't be too inactive in the beginning because of gameplay issues. Instead of developed settlements the main cities have a garrison script, which is the best solution to slow player expansion since playing with too many developed settlements would limit your options of how to manage your technology.

    A lot of known characters were included in the game and those that weren't have not been born yet, you can try the faramir and boromir sub mod to get these characters via script but there is no guarantee that they will end up as the sons of Denethor. Some differences between books and game have to be tolerated.

    There is a sub mod that makes faction standings and traits more logical within Tolkien's world, you won't suffer penalties when executing orcs with some factions for example.
    Last edited by Louis Lux; September 26, 2009 at 07:52 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Lux View Post
    DAC has as a overall goal to offer more unique gameplay, it probably changes quite a few things. Making the invasions Jihads make them be more random, you won't get Edoras being targeted first at every game.

    These are probably from playing at medium difficulty, the orcs are kind of weak but the trolls make up for it, huge stacks with several troll units can be really challenging. Invasions will be targeted at you but invasions usually target Rohan for some reason, I think it's a 50% chance you will be targeted and 50% Rohan will be targeted. If you don't retake the invaded settlements I think there will be more chance you're going to be invaded next.

    Sauron left Dol Guldur after the events of the hobbit and increased his activity which is basically what happens in the mod, Mordor can't be too inactive in the beginning because of gameplay issues. Instead of developed settlements the main cities have a garrison script, which is the best solution to slow player expansion since playing with too many developed settlements would limit your options of how to manage your technology.

    A lot of known characters were included in the game and those that weren't have not been born yet, you can try the faramir and boromir sub mod to get these characters via script but there is no guarantee that they will end up as the sons of Denethor. Some differences between books and game have to be tolerated.

    There is a sub mod that makes faction standings and traits more logical within Tolkien's world, you won't suffer penalties when executing orcs with some factions for example.
    Interesting. What sub mod allows massacre of orcs for no dread? Oh and i know trolls are good, I have encountered them and it took my heavy infantry to deal with them. As for Dol Guldur, I know Sauron left but he didn't stop having it as a militairy base (and not a city). Changing it to a castle-type settlement would be great. The garrison script is a bit unusual for me, but it works fairly well.

    Otherwise thanks for info and quick response from both you guys. Hoping for more insight as well, now I'm off to test some orks in custom battle before I decide if my next game will be Mordor or Rhun. BTW any info on Wargs yet? Or does a player-controlled Mordor just make do with Nazgūls? Is it just me or is a faction without cavalry at a HUGE disadvantage as he'd have to fight the same fleeing units over and over again? Dwarves comes to mind for example, and I've yet to see OotMM and Mordor fielding any fast unit that works as cavalry.

  6. #6

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendoftheDork View Post
    What sub mod allows massacre of orcs for no dread?
    It's really simple. Release prisoners = chivalry/respect, execute prisoners = dread/fear. It works and and it's the fastest way to max out respect/fear.

    You can role play a little. Honorable characters like Faramir could work towards respect while someone like Denethor might go for fear. There's all kinds of people. With evil factions the choice is quite easy I'd say, especially the orcish factions.

    BTW any info on Wargs yet? Or does a player-controlled Mordor just make do with Nazgūls?
    Only Orcs of the Misty Mountains and Isengard get Wargs. Nazgul are awesome, the Black Numenorian bodyguards can be brutal and you get trolls and masses of orcs so you'll be more than fine. Mordor is one of the easiest factions to play.

    Is it just me or is a faction without cavalry at a HUGE disadvantage as he'd have to fight the same fleeing units over and over again?
    It's not so much of a disadvantage (not a HUGE one at least) as it is annoying.

    Dwarves comes to mind for example, and I've yet to see OotMM and Mordor fielding any fast unit that works as cavalry.
    Dwarves get mercenary Dale horsmen although the availability is limited so you just have to adapt, think of it as a unique challenge.

    OotMM get Wargs. Mordor has only Nazgul to chase down routers but it's better than nothing and you don't need much cavalry just to hunt down fleeing unit anyway (unless they really spread out). Just use your masses of orcs to surround the enemy and watch them make a "last stand".

  7. #7

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Alright, the wargs seems to work well. And trolls work marvelously. I did a test between mordor and dwarves, with small units (no bodyguard, trying to fit units against eachother as much as possible). Army worth was also fairly equal, as was number if units (trolls keeps the number down). Dwarves had 1 heavy elite sword, 2 light inf, 2 axethrowers, 1 crossbow, 1 axemen. I had 2 scouts, 1 warband, 2 raiders, 1 mauler and 1 troll. Result? heroic victory for morder, albeit at more than 50% casualties. The trolls were awesome, but get seperated easily, thus tied down fighting multiple enemy units (my "captain" died). Still the dwarves routed eventually. I think it would be easier to win the same battle with dwarves instead.

    Why not give Mordor wargs? And would it be easy for me to just add a name in some descr_units file or something?

  8. #8

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendoftheDork View Post
    Why not give Mordor wargs?
    Because Mordor already has plenty going for it. A large and strong starting position, Black Numenorians/Nazgul and Trolls which are both devastating units, masses of cost effective orcs.

    Orcs seem weak and easy to rout but in the hands of a human player they can easily overwhelm the opposition. Also when the AI has a good general like one of those 10 star Nazgul you suddenly find out that cutting through those 250 unit orc battalions isn't quite the cakewalk you expected it to be. When they refuse to rout you really beging to feel the weight of their numbers.

    Not having plentiful cavalry gives Mordor a small weakness, something to exploit, something to overcome, a unique feature/challenge. Most factions have such weaknesses. Gondor is probably the only faction that "has it all" but even they are somewhat limited by AoR.

    And would it be easy for me to just add a name in some descr_units file or something?
    I'm pretty sure it is easy but I don't know how, hopefully someone more knowledgeable comes by.

    Actually I think I got it. There's an ownership clause near the bottom. I think that if you simply add England (marked red) you'll be able to recruit Warg Riders as Mordor (designated 'england' in the code). I could be wrong, maybe there's more to it but that should do it.

    type Wargs
    dictionary Wargs ; Wargs ; Average
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type Heavy
    banner faction main_cavalry
    banner holy crusade_cavalry
    soldier Warg_riders, 40, 0, 1
    mount warg_camel
    mount_effect elephant -4, horse +2
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.25
    formation 3, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, horde ; 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square
    stat_health 1, 1
    stat_pri 9, 9, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, sword, 45, 1 ; sword 4 + 3 + 1 - 1 + 2 warg + 1 impet
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 3, 2, 0, leather ; leather lamellar, defense 4 - 2 - 1 + 2 warg - 1 impet
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 3
    stat_ground 0, -1, -2, 0
    stat_mental 12, impetuous, trained
    stat_charge_dist 20
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 480, 180, 120, 95, 720, 4, 170
    armour_ug_levels 1, 2
    armour_ug_models Warg_riders, Warg_riders_upg
    ownership france, england
    era 0 france, england
    era 1 france, england
    era 2 france, england
    recruit_priority_offset 30


    Actually Mordor doesn't have any "stables" afaik, that could be a problem. Ah well, I tried.
    Last edited by Jean=A=Luc; September 26, 2009 at 09:06 PM.

  9. #9
    Louis Lux's Avatar Into the Light
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    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendoftheDork View Post
    Interesting. What sub mod allows massacre of orcs for no dread?
    It's this one http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=be+evil+papio
    Not entirely sure it will work how you want it to.

  10. #10

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Lux View Post
    It's this one http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=be+evil+papio
    Not entirely sure it will work how you want it to.
    A similar thing is alredy included in 1.2.

  11. #11

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Actually RR+RC addresses quite a few of your suggestions, at least suggestions 1, 6 and 6(7). It gives more variation to invasion targets (Lorien, Erebor) and makes Gondor cities primary targets. In my game with Gondor, first invasion was called on E.Osgiliath at turn 45. Yes, it also delays invasions to balance the game a bit.

    It tweaks the time scale making the game start on 2980 and includes Faramir, Boromir and Eomer via a script. It's quite worth the try I think. Not least because it has integrated in it and now includes a bunch of the most popular other submods that have been made. Including the one LL linked.

  12. #12
    Louis Lux's Avatar Into the Light
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    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    I thought so too but I wasn't sure.

  13. #13

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    How does evil factions benefit from sacking etc. in vanilla 1.2? If I can avoid downloading another submod it's for the best I think.

    Kikka I'll probably test it some time,I have it downloaded but not installed yet, thinking to finish the game with Gondor first. Although since that game isn't very challenging anymore now that I have most of Harad, I'm not sure how much longer I want to play it. Is there also som bug that makes it impossible to win because I can't wipe out evil factions?

  14. #14

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendoftheDork View Post
    How does evil factions benefit from sacking etc. in vanilla 1.2? If I can avoid downloading another submod it's for the best I think.

    Kikka I'll probably test it some time,I have it downloaded but not installed yet, thinking to finish the game with Gondor first. Although since that game isn't very challenging anymore now that I have most of Harad, I'm not sure how much longer I want to play it. Is there also som bug that makes it impossible to win because I can't wipe out evil factions?
    That bug is fixed in RR+RC. And trust me, it's plenty of challenge . Take heed that RR+RC is constantly updated, so you might be having good campaign going that lasts over several updates. But it's nothing to worry, just start the next campaign with the newest update. Make sure also that you report any bugs or suggestions you have in order to help make the mod better and better all the time.

  15. #15

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendoftheDork View Post
    How does evil factions benefit from sacking etc. in vanilla 1.2? If I can avoid downloading another submod it's for the best I think.
    They don't get a benefit, but they will not get a disadvantage. In Medieval the reputation of your faction became worse when executing prisoners/ sacking villages/ using assisins. This is removed also for good factions.

  16. #16

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seleukos_I. View Post
    They don't get a benefit, but they will not get a disadvantage. In Medieval the reputation of your faction became worse when executing prisoners/ sacking villages/ using assisins. This is removed also for good factions.
    Really? I got a bad rep with Gondor early in my game, and I remember I did some sacking/exterminating. I also did break off an agreement where I was to pay an evil faction tribute in exchange for getting their maps (I hate not having maps from everyone). Still I'm not sure if that single dishonorable act was enough to give me that poor reputation.

    Anything else that will affect reputation in this game? Breaking off alliances? Backstabbing is not even possible anymore (thank god).

    Oh, and occupying cities does that give you better reputation like in M2TW? Or does it just give "fair in rule" traits?

  17. #17
    Louis Lux's Avatar Into the Light
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    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    I think you can only execute orc prisoners but you still get bad rep from exterminating a settlement, not a very smart move I may say since you don't get too much trouble from unrest. As gondor you are expected to act honorably, if not you will get bad traits and bad reputation.

  18. #18

    Default Re: My first try - but not the last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Lux View Post
    I think you can only execute orc prisoners but you still get bad rep from exterminating a settlement, not a very smart move I may say since you don't get too much trouble from unrest. As gondor you are expected to act honorably, if not you will get bad traits and bad reputation.
    Nah I've already executed a bunch of haradrim, although I usually try to avoid it for rp reasons. But if you attack an army by a city and take alot of prisoners, then releasing them will cause them to retreat to the castle so that you have to fight them again (killing them all usually) and lose alot of your own men to.

    Usually I gamle that the enemy cannot afford the ransom. Orcs, on the other hand, have been exectuted almost every time, by high-dread generals.

    I've downloaded the updated RR/RC mod now, but I want to use my new improved Swan Knights a bit more before I give up the Gondor game, destroy harad and take Minas Morgul at the very least. Maybe Barad Dūr just to see if I can.

    Edit: I must say I'm impressed how hard it has been to subdue and conquer the Haradrim, I'm around turn 100 and still they are alive and counterattacking me with sometimes large stacks. The quality of their units is fairly low, although they use alot more siege engines and cavalry now than before. No sight of the Mūmakil yet though I'd so like to see a real Oliphaunt

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