Achilles and heel

[DAVIDE]

if he knew he was vulnerable in the heel, why the hell he went to war wearing sandals?

Did achilles was coscient of his vulnerability?

[bushbush]

i know, if only he had a shoe sponsor, they would ve come up with a custom-designed shoe for him, Achilles-2000 something.

[DAVIDE]

i know, if only he had a shoe sponsor, they would ve come up with a custom-designed shoe for him, Achilles-2000 something.

i know but hittites were usual to wear




Assyrians




those protects the feet better than greek sandals

[Ebusitanus]

I do not think he was really aware of it.

[gaius valerius]

if he knew he was vulnerable in the heel, why the hell he went to war wearing sandals?

Did achilles was coscient of his vulnerability?

If he wore good clothing he wouldn't have died and then there would be no cool heroics in the Illiad. End of story.

That or he couldn't hear that voice in the back of his head "dude the heeeeel" over the sound of how awesome he was.

[DAVIDE]

If he wore good clothing he wouldn't have died and then there would be no cool heroics in the Illiad. End of story.

Martyirism and heroism are two separate things, you can be an hero even without dying for a cause

That or he couldn't hear that voice in the back of his head "dude the heeeeel" over the sound of how awesome he was.

. Btw there were shoes around. Hittites and Assyrians had it

[gaius valerius]

Martyirism and heroism are two separate things, you can be an hero even without dying for a cause

Right now Homer is rolling in his grave making the "I does not approve"-look

. Btw there were shoes around. Hittites and Assyrians had it

Shoes are gay! Ancient greeks preferred sandals, the footwear of true men, true men that train naked together, body drenched in oil, yes, the glory that was Greece is not amused with shoes!

[Odovacar]

Shoes are gay! Ancient greeks preferred sandals, the footwear of true men, true men that train naked together, body drenched in oil, yes, the glory that was Greece is not amused with shoes!

Our interpretation of gayness surely differ from each other, Gaius

As for Achilles..well people without cool Mark or Adidas shoes deserve a cruel fate.

[DAVIDE]

Right now Homer is rolling in his grave making the "I does not approve"-look

homer was blind. He could've been cheated easily anyway by everybody

Shoes are gay! Ancient greeks preferred sandals, the footwear of true men, true men that train naked together, body drenched in oil, yes, the glory that was Greece is not amused with shoes!

yeeeeeah like Spartans which fought in bare feet as real men. Has Sparties, ever fought on sharp stone terrains? hurts so much

[gaius valerius]

yeeeeeah like Spartans which fought in bare feet as real men. Has Sparties, ever fought on sharp stone terrains? hurts so much

Being übercool and being intelligent are 2 quite different things !!!

[Genius of the Restoration]

I'm not entirely sure, but is it possible that the development of the Achilles legend only added the fatal heel bit after his involvement in the Trojan War? I know a lot of the Herculean myths add things at points that make earlier myths seem to not make sense. Perhaps it's the same.
An interesting later text on part of why he went to war can be found in Statius' Achilleid. Read it, it's incomplete and very short and will only take you an hour.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Why, you think a leather boot could prevent an arrow or a spear from piercing it?
Achilles was well aware of the fact he was going to die in the Trojan War one way or another, since the Fates had given him the opportunity to pick between a long life in obscurity and a short one accompanied by eternal fame, and he chose the second. And this is pretty much the heroic quality in the character of Achilles, since contrary to his fighting prowess, which was more of a gift from the gods, his disregard towards death and his zeal for glory were credited to none but himself.

Has Sparties, ever fought on sharp stone terrains? hurts so much

For us.
But not if you get used to it from the age of 7, when they were sent to survive of their own in the mountains of Laconia and Messenia. Not if you are used to much harsher conditions like getting whipped or having to swim in frozen river waters.
And yeah, Greece is full of mountains, so is Thrace, Souther Italy, Eastern Anatolia and other places which saw them campaigning

[DAVIDE]

Why, you think a leather boot could prevent an arrow or a spear from piercing it?

well, it depends on reinforced leather layers of the shoe. If i m an archer and i have to aim someone, i try to hit the unguarded parts. It's insane thinking to kill a man by the heel, off course except the uber achilles

Achilles was well aware of the fact he was going to die in the Trojan War one way or another, since the Fates had given him the opportunity to pick between a long life in obscurity and a short one accompanied by eternal fame, and he chose the second. And this is pretty much the heroic quality in the character of Achilles, since contrary to his fighting prowess, which was more of a gift from the gods, his disregard towards death and his zeal for glory were credited to none but himself.

i cant understand the options given him by Fates.

1_ join the dark side of strenght remaining semi-immortal, away from wars

2_ the glory but with a premature death


why not glory and permanent semi-immortality too as option?


I seriously think Fates cheated on him

For us.
But not if you get used to it from the age of 7, when they were sent to survive of their own in the mountains of Laconia and Messenia. Not if you are used to much harsher conditions like getting whipped or having to swim in frozen river waters.
And yeah, Greece is full of mountains, so is Thrace, Souther Italy, Eastern Anatolia and other places which saw them campaigning

yes but this is not explaining the insane Greek will to have Leerdammer cheese-feet

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

well, it depends on reinforced leather layers of the shoe. If i m an archer and i have to aim someone, i try to hit the unguarded parts. It's insane thinking to kill a man by the heel, off course except the uber achilles

Yes it is, but if for some reason you decided to aim at the heel, there is no way leather can prevent your arrow or javelin or spear thrust, unless there are so many bands of leather that the shoe ends up thwarting your opponent's maneuverability with it's weight

i cant understand the options given him by Fates.

1_ join the dark side of strenght remaining semi-immortal, away from wars

2_ the glory but with a premature death


why not glory and permanent semi-immortality too as option?


I seriously think Fates cheated on him

LOL And who said the gods were fair? Obviously the moral of the myth was that nothing comes without a price and especially the most important ideal of the archaic period Greeks, the 'hysterophemia', in other words immortal fame, which came at the cost of the most important thing one possesed, his life.

yes but this is not explaining the insane Greek will to have Leerdammer cheese-feet

The rest of the Greeks wore sandals. I suspect the reason for this is that in Greece it gets too hot in the summer, which was the sole period of operations for a long time, and it's very relieving to expose your feet to fresh air. Plus they are comfortable enough in linear terrain, like valleys and plains, where the battles were fought. Later, as war progressed into year long campaigns, which could be conducted in a multitude of theaters under different weather and territorial conditions, Iphicrates introduced the use of leather boots.
Now as far as the Spartans are concerned, their contempt for shoes can be very much explained as an expression of their general contempt for amenities and ease in their life, which in turn was a manifestation of their state's ideal to create individuals enduring anything and being dependent on practically nothing for their survival. You may disagree with this philosophy, but there's definitely a logic behind it.

[dogukan]

For us.
But not if you get used to it from the age of 7, when they were sent to survive of their own in the mountains of Laconia and Messenia. Not if you are used to much harsher conditions like getting whipped or having to swim in frozen river waters.
And yeah, Greece is full of mountains, so is Thrace, Souther Italy, Eastern Anatolia and other places which saw them campaigning

besides there were no broken beer bottles back then

but seriously I know the Aegean terrain...and there are lots of things that can hurt your feet. Lots of them.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

besides there were no broken beer bottles back then

but seriously I know the Aegean terrain...and there are lots of things that can hurt your feet. Lots of them.

And you should have also observed that the more you expose your feet to harsh conditions, the more dry,rugged and hard the skin becomes. Imagine doing that non stop from the age of seven. Plus, if you are trained to endure pain from hunger, fatigue, whipping, battle wounds, swimming in cold water and stuff like that, the last thing you would complain about is that something penetrated your toe.



On topic: Achilles did not know that he was invulnerable except for his heel. If I recall the myth correctly, his parents had had a couple of children before him, but every time Thetis would leave short before the birth and come back later saying that the child had died. So Peleus was frustrated and when it was time for Achilles to be born, he decided to spy on Thetis. What he found out is that their children had been dying because of a weird ritual Thetis and other Nereids subjected them to in order to make them immortal (the one with the water from Styx or fire in other verses). So he rushed in, grabbed Achilles before the process was completed, left and never allowed Thetis in his kingdom again. Six years later he sent his son off to the centaurs to be raised by Cheiron and didn't see him again save for once or twice. So, Achilles was never informed of the events revolving around his birth.
And it wouldn't matter anyway, since from the moment he chose death and glory when the Fates presented him with the dilemma, he couldn't have escaped it even if he was entering the battlefield like a French knight.

[gaius valerius]

And you should have also observed that the more you expose your feet to harsh conditions, the more dry,rugged and hard the skin becomes. Imagine doing that non stop from the age of seven. Plus, if you are trained to endure pain from hunger, fatigue, whipping, battle wounds, swimming in cold water and stuff like that, the last thing you would complain about is that something penetrated your toe.

Off topic, think of how the Zulu warriors were trained to step on thorns all their live, they didn't wear sandals and their feets were covered with I don't know the word in english but you guys know what I mean . Works pretty well it seems.

[Frederich Barbarossa]

Maybe Achilles felt that shoes were uncomfortable because in the Illiad it shows that he did lots of physical things, and shoes would discomfort him, and since Troy is located in a hot area, he wore sandals to cool off? Thats my theory. Also he didn't care about the heel. This is my other theory, that the phrase, Achille and his heel, would mean Achille and his arrogance, heel meaning that it was his arrogance in trying to seek glory as a hero, that really killed him, not his heel.

[Romano-Dacis]

I sometimes wonder if the writers of the Illyad made Paris's arrow poisoned through deus ex machina after they realized "oh yeah, there are no vital organs in the heel..."

[Spartacus the Irish]

Do you really believe that Achilles was immortal, save for his foot? That he was not just a great warrior who was hit in the foot by an arrow and died from it (probably by Septicemia) and thus the myth about his being invincible save for his heel took root and popularity?

And even in the later myths of real events, was Achilles aware that his heel had been covered when he was dipped into the waters, and thus that it was vulnerable? Homer was not the man who claimed he was invulnerable, it was later legends that added this romanticism.