History's ironies

[Salem1]

Post yours, could be pretty much anything

- At the 11th September 1683, Poland-Lithuania saved Austria from having Vienna conquered by the Ottomans. Slightly more than a hundred years later, Austria was one of the three powers participating in the partitions of Poland.

- Know that Russian baltic pipeline? it both starts and ends in what used to be Swedish territory.

- In the Prut campaign, not only did the Ottomans have a relatively easy and very, very decisive victory right in front of their noses but they could also restore Sweden's territorial losses (an Ottoman ally) and make Peter cede whatever Charles XII wanted, except for St. Petersburg and the Neva river (which would probably cease to be an exception by the time the Ottomans reached Moscow). Instead, the Ottoman commander accepted a bribe and Russia got off with a scratch or two. Now, remember what Russia would do to the Ottomans in the coming decades? ... Look here for a better summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prut_Campaign

- Napoleon kept a book of Charles XII's invasion of Russia with him and read it pretty much all the time during his invasion of Russia. He swore not to repeat Charles XII's mistakes.

- Hitler had his personnel read up on the previous failures of invading Russia. He too swore not to repeat those mistakes...

- Just as Charles XII said ''don't worry'', he got hit in the head by a bullet when he climbed out of a trench to observe the enemy (although it might have been and imo probably was an assasination).

- Sweden's navy has been better at sinking its own flagships than its enemies have: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronan_(ship)

- Up until around WW1 or so, more soldiers died because of the conditions in which they campaigned rather than the actual fighting itself.

[Genius of the Restoration]

The now racial slur kaffir came from the Arabic 'kafir' used to refer to a heathen, unbeliever, infidel. Europeans, seeing Muslim traders use this word to refer to their non-Muslim slaves, misunderstood it and it entered the vernacular. The irony is that kaffir can now be a racial insult to a black Muslim, even though it has its roots in describing a non-Muslim.

[Dr. Croccer]

- At the 11th September 1683, Poland-Lithuania saved Austria from having Vienna conquered by the Ottomans. Slightly more than a hundred years later, Austria was one of the three powers participating in the partitions of Poland.

The battle ended on 12th September.

A few ironies/trivia.


One of Hitler's confidantes, Unity Mitford, came from the family which founded the town of Swastika in Ontario, Canada. Hitler viewed this as divine providence.


There were 42 attempts or plots to assassinate Hitler.


During the Battle of Verdun, in WWI, a single German infantryman managed to capture an entire French fort with around 50 or more French soldiers inside. The German arrived at the fort, which seemed deserted, untill he noticed that all the French soldiers were attending a speech by their officers inside a room. He locked them in and waited for reinforcements to arrive.

The US, untill WWII, had advanced plans regarding a possible war with the British Empire. They had advanced plans regarding the manpower and military of the Brits, possible invasion routes and their best means of winning. Operational Plan Red it was called.


The typical Alsatian window is called a ''vasistas'' in French. Supposedly, this is because, during the Franco-Prussian War, a Prussian officer asked to one of the local Frenchmen, whilst pointing at the window: ''Was ist das?''. The Frenchman, who didn't speak German, pretending to understand what he was saying and repeated: ''Oui, oui! Un Vasistas!'' To this day, skylights in French are commonly refered to as ''vasistas''

[Odovacar]

Some ironies

-Hitler's goal was to eradicate jews but after he failed Israel was made, especially to provide a home for the world's often persecuted jewry.
So the jews ended being stronger than before.


-while the papacy was working to crush the german emperor's power, and they managed to outlast the Hohenstaufen,the royal power in the kingdom of France emerged , and eventually forced the popes for a long servitude.

-The norman forces who were sent to aid pope Gregory VII foraged and raped so much in Rome that the pope could not return to the city. The occupying germans left Rome unharmed though.

[Zhangir]

Just spontaneous stuff I remembered

- Chrisopher Columbus wanted to find the route to India via Sea. He found America in 1493. Vasco de Gama found the sea route to India (or rather found it once again after the Phoenecians, etc.) in 1497.

- One big irony is the German/British Naval race and the amount the Germans spent. Just to destroy the fleet themselves at Scapa Flow (71 ships)

- Soviet Union was officially a democratic state, as were it's puppet/allies German Democratic Republic, People's Democratic Republic of Korea...

- Finland. One big Irony of History is connected to Finland and the rest of the former Russian Empire.
Finland was part of Russian Empire for 100 years and was underdeveloped (1809-1917) area with notable famine.
After it's independence in 1917 and up to today, Finland is a developed modern country (Nokia, etc.)

- Carthage was reportedly founded on what the size of an ox skin could cover (they cut it up into long stripes)

- Hitler wasn't German citizen up to 1932 (1933 January he was appointed Chancellor)

- The Crusaders and the Mameluks had an alliance against the Mongols


P.S.
+rep to Dr.Croccer for the Battle of Verdun one!
I thought it was hillarious!

[William the Bastard]

Chrisopher Columbus wanted to find the route to India via Sea. He found America in 1493. Vasco de Gama found the sea route to India (or rather found it once again after the Phoenecians, etc.) in 1497.

IIRC didn't he still believe to his dieing day that he had landed in the Far East and not the New World?

[conon394]

or rather found it once again after the Phoenecians, etc.

???

[Zhangir]

I meant the way around the Africa.
It is know that Phoenecians travelled round Africa (While de Gama was the first to do so for a long time after them)


Just to clarify:

The way to India from Europe is around the southern End of Africa (cape)

Now Phoenecians were the best sea travellers of their time and have sailed around Africa.

This was then forgoten over centuries, until the Age of Discoveries (Colombus, de Gama, etc.) when Vasco de Gama discovered a sea route around Africa and on to India.

When I mentioned Phoenecians, I meant as in the people who found the sea route around Africa.



EDIT:
Just so that this post is not in vain

- As said above, funny - Phoenecians were faster than de Gama, Vikings - than Colombus

- Just remembered this : Lawrence of Arabia. A de facto guerrilla intelligence spy kind of person, promoting separatism. Today people like that are called "terrorists"

[conon394]

I agree the circumnavigation thing seems to have come off - but they did not sail to India they coasted around Africa and even then E->W comparatively easier and under the direction/behest of Egypt..

In any case I also question

Now Phoenecians were the best sea travelers of their time

- not really about as good as the Greeks or even the Etruscans: overall marginally better at some things and not others.

In this case I think you much over estimate the Phonecians. As I said their circumnavigation was slow and E->W and so much easier on the west African side. The route de Gama took (ignoring the long Portuguese work beforehand) W->E eluded all Classical attempts - Carthy, Greek and Persian. Second the Open water jump from Africa to India was a Greek innovation something the Phoenicians never did (except perhaps by coasting). Finally his W->E leg as I understand it was blue water not a coasting trip something nobody is known to have attempted in the classical era.

But this is OT, sorry the supposed Phonecian rep is just a pet peeve of mine.

[Barry Goldwater]

How could we forget Che Guevara? He's a hardcore Communist fighter whose face is now printed on shirts manufactured by the capitalists he was trying to destroy and sold to middle-class kids trying to 'rebel' and 'be cool'

[Ludicus]

conon 394

The route de Gama took ...W->E eluded all Classical attempts - Carthy, Greek and Persian.

Rep+
Great summary.

"...ignoring the long Portuguese work beforehand"
Just a small remark: Bartolomeu Dias deserves an honorable mention.

The expedition was carefully prepared - and Bartolomeu Dias was acting as one of its naval consultants. Pero de Alenquer Dias´s former pilot, sailed with the flagship; Gama was taken to the Cape by Alenquer, who had previously steered Bartolomeu round the Cape.

In 1487/88, Dias had struggled south along the coast; however Gama (probably following Dias´s advice) decided to sail the coastal route only as far as Sierre Leone. Then breaking with convention, he headed out to sea in a west -SW direction and sailed in for three months without sigthing land ( the written source is a "roteiro" written by Alvaro Velho aboard the São Rafael). Prevailing winds carried it to within a few hundred kilometres of the coast of Brasil. Between 30 and 35 degrees south, must have passed out of the trade wind belt:
Though not sufficiently far south to pick up the prevailing westerlies - which Dias have reached in 1488 - a decade earlier, at this point Gama was able to utilise seasonable favorable winds to turn east directly.
However, he made his turn too far north to round Africa, instead arriving off Saint Helene Bay, stopping for a few days. During the second stage of the voyage he he sailed on along the S. and SE shores , making periodic landings. Dias last padrão was passed ten days beyond Mossel Bay, after which the expediton entered the unknown.
The epic voyage at the time was the longest in distance ever recorded.

However, Dias´s voyage, in 1487/88 from Lisbon to Mossel Bay alone probably exceeed 11,000 kms, and the whole voyage lasted 16 months and 17 days.
During the voyage Dias passed through the entire tropics twice; also, before rounding the Cape, must have reached latitudes close to 40 degrees south, well within the limits of the southern iceberg zone.

In 1500, Dias joined Cabral´s expedition to India and perished at sea in May, during a storm. On the way to India, Cabral paused on the coast of Brasil - the official account was that he was blown off course and came across it by chance. He claimed it for Portugal, according to the treaty of Tordesillas (1494)

Bartolomeu Dias voyage:post 9
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...artolomeu+Dias

Sorry if it´s off topic.

THe irony I am hinting at is that if Vasco de Gama was earlier by 5 years, it could (possibility) delay the discovery of the New World

Bartolomeu Dias rounded the Cape rounded the Cape in 1488, more than two years before Colombo set sail; ten years before Cabral´s voyage.

[Cposi_I_Caxponi]

One of Russia's greatest authors, Alexander Pushkin, had African roots (!?).

[Nikitn]

One of Russia's greatest authors, Alexander Pushkin, had African roots (!?).

Why is this ironic

[Zhangir]

not really about as good as the Greeks or even the Etruscans: overall marginally better at some things and not others..

Firstly I was generalising, this is an irony of history thread, and I only mentioned the Phonecians in the first place just so people don't go shouting "Ah! You are wrong, De Gama wasn't first around Africa, the Phoneceans did it"
Secondly, I agree they are more or less on par with the Greeks (although I tend to place them better because the Greeks borrowed a lot from the Phoneceans), but the Etruscans didn't have extensive network of colonies round the Meditereanean like the Phoenicians )
Moreover you can't really compare them, since they had difference in centuries of when they were at peak.
1200 BC - 800 BC the Greeks were in a Dark Age
1200 BC - 800 BC the Phonicians were at their Peak
Same goes when the Phonicians declined (Greeks rose)
Although on the whole I agree, we sitting here today with limited evidence, can't fully compare the Greeks and Phonicians and which were better.

but they did not sail to India they coasted around Africa

Yes, I am sorry if my post seemed to imply they travelled to India. What i meant was that Vasco de Gama wasn't the first person from Europe (or Middle East) who was onboard of a vessel in those waters

- One of the big ironies I just remembered - Frederick I Barbarossa assembled a 100 000 men army (or maybe 15 000 ) and drowned... poor fellow

- As you might remember in Walter Scot's Ivanhoe, King Richard I is seen as the leader of the yowman who attack the castle to free the Saxon nobles. Generally Richard I is praised in England, and has a statue of himself in right next to the Palace of Westminster (Parliament)
Firstly, King Richard spoke very limited English, some sources indicate the fact that he Didn't know English at all.
Secondly, although King of England, he has only been to England twice in his life essentially. To be Crowned and after the Crusade, in total just about half a year overall?

- His brother, King John Lackland, reportedly died because he ate peaches and drank beer together. (not ironic, but funny) (also is more of fictious, as it seems to have been dysentery, not peaches)

- When Tamerlane was buried, a curse was placed on his tomb.
It was said that whoever opened the Tomb would plunge humanity into a horrible war.
The Soviet Scientists opened the Tomb on the 21st of June 1941

- More Tamerlane legends, now basing on the memoirs of one of the people who opened the tomb
On the 20th of June he met 3 old men with an Arabic book in the nearby town, all three of whom tried to convince him not to open the tomb, as the book said it would cause a war.
On the 21st the tomb was opened.
As you may know on the 22nd of June the Soviet Union was under attack
Now! The person (the one who talked to the old wise men) was serving on the frontline and repeatedly asked to see Zhukov. In 1942 he was granted an audience, and he explained everything and Zhukov agreed to seal the tomb with the remains in it.
In 1942, 19th-20th of November the Tomb was re-sealed.
The very same day the Soviets started to recover at the Battle of Stalingrad.

[Cposi_I_Caxponi]

Why is this ironic

Because 18th century Russia is probably the last country to welcome any blacks, let alone have them spawn a huge figure like Pushkin.

[Odovacar]

Because 18th century Russia is probably the last country to welcome any blacks, let alone have them spawn a huge figure like Pushkin.

I think what really mattered in 18th century Russia (and anywhere most likely) was your social stance and your wealth. And probably your religion. I think Puskhin's ancestor was some ethiopian wealthy aristocrat or such. The man himself was rather proud of him.

[Nikitn]

Because 18th century Russia is probably the last country to welcome any blacks, let alone have them spawn a huge figure like Pushkin.

Uhm, what? Blacks were unusual all over Europe. Just because one got to Russia, and reproduced doesn't mean it was something ironic. It was just an unusual occurrence, nothing more.

[Xellos_Moon]

Ogatai khan...Overdranked, died

[il padrino]

When Tamerlane was buried, a curse was placed on his tomb.
It was said that whoever opened the Tomb would plunge humanity into a horrible war.
The Soviet Scientists opened the Tomb on the 21st of June 1941

- More Tamerlane legends, now basing on the memoirs of one of the people who opened the tomb
On the 20th of June he met 3 old men with an Arabic book in the nearby town, all three of whom tried to convince him not to open the tomb, as the book said it would cause a war.
On the 21st the tomb was opened.
As you may know on the 22nd of June the Soviet Union was under attack
Now! The person (the one who talked to the old wise men) was serving on the frontline and repeatedly asked to see Zhukov. In 1942 he was granted an audience, and he explained everything and Zhukov agreed to seal the tomb with the remains in it.
In 1942, 19th-20th of November the Tomb was re-sealed.
The very same day the Soviets started to recover at the Battle of Stalingrad.

that's scary...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

let's open it again

[4th Regiment]

When Tamerlane was buried, a curse was placed on his tomb.
It was said that whoever opened the Tomb would plunge humanity into a horrible war.
The Soviet Scientists opened the Tomb on the 21st of June 1941

- More Tamerlane legends, now basing on the memoirs of one of the people who opened the tomb
On the 20th of June he met 3 old men with an Arabic book in the nearby town, all three of whom tried to convince him not to open the tomb, as the book said it would cause a war.
On the 21st the tomb was opened.
As you may know on the 22nd of June the Soviet Union was under attack
Now! The person (the one who talked to the old wise men) was serving on the frontline and repeatedly asked to see Zhukov. In 1942 he was granted an audience, and he explained everything and Zhukov agreed to seal the tomb with the remains in it.
In 1942, 19th-20th of November the Tomb was re-sealed.
The very same day the Soviets started to recover at the Battle of Stalingrad.[/SPOILER]

I have also read similar stuff about opening of the tomb, but have not heard that story about wise men with book and sealing the tomb.
Anyway, what I read, Temeralne curse says - those who open it, will experince Tamerlane's plague upon them (he is the one who perfected genocide and mass killings)