View Poll Results: Kataphract Mumakil In Third Age Total War?

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  • Yes

    33 25.78%
  • No

    95 74.22%
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Thread: Kataphract Mumakil / Mumakil Innovation

  1. #61

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Because the "bad guys" don't already have plenty of nigh ridiculously overpowered units?

  2. #62
    gee8648's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    While I wouldn't be in support of an armored mamukil unit, I do like to see people coming up with new and interesting ideas for the mod.

    I'm not one of those "its not in the books so it never happened!" kinds of people, but at the same time I would never want to ruin the story with unrealistic ideas.

    With a beast that tough already and that imposing there really wouldn't be a need to armor them. I could understand, not militarily speaking of course, but the people of Harad using baby mamukil as beasts of burden, either aiding in construction, transportation of heavy trade goods (precious metal), and royal extravagance (these mamukil would be decorated with riches and painted bright colors.)

    I also wouldn't put it past the Orcs of Mordor trying to armor them in an effort to make them even more of a morale crusher, even though the armor itself wouldn't provide any more protection (think armor with the eye of Sauron painted on it, or black flame shaped armor.)

    But keep up the good work on coming up with new interesting units, I do enjoy reading your posts! At the very least they breath life into creative thought.
    Last edited by gee8648; September 25, 2009 at 01:19 PM.
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  3. #63
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Icon10 Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by gee8648 View Post
    While I wouldn't be in support of an armored mamukil unit, I do like to see people coming up with new and interesting ideas for the mod.

    I'm not one of those "its not in the books so it never happened!" kinds of people, but at the same time I would never want to ruin the story with unrealistic ideas.

    With a beast that tough already and that imposing there really wouldn't be a need to armor them. I could understand, not militarily speaking of course, but the people of Harad using baby mamukil as beasts of burden, either aiding in construction, transportation of heavy trade goods (precious metal), and royal extravagance (these mamukil would be decorated with riches and painted bright colors.)

    I also wouldn't put it past the Orcs of Mordor trying to armor them in an effort to make them even more of a morale crusher, even though the armor itself wouldn't provide any more protection (think armor with the eye of Sauron painted on it, or black flame shaped armor.)

    But keep up the good work on coming up with new interesting units, I do enjoy reading your posts! At the very least they breath life into creative thought.
    Great post. Very explanitory. Can I know your opinion on Rhunnic Chariots (Wainriders)...

  4. #64
    gee8648's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Frayling View Post
    Great post. Very explanitory. Can I know your opinion on Rhunnic Chariots (Wainriders)...

    Thanks! Sure, but I do not know nearly as much about Tolkien as many people on here so I'm sure what I'm about to say will be bashed (ohhh well.) My information on Rhun is based on the couple of scenes of them in the movies, reading the LOTR books a while ago, and seeing them in the Third Age Mod.

    From what I gather they're society is much more structured than Harad, they seem to be less tribal and more organized. They also have access to more metals based and knowledge of advanced smithing techniques. The terrain they live on is plains like with some mountainous regions (where they get the metal from I assume).

    Since chariots in the real world were originally a Celtic creation which the Romans adopted and put to good use, I suppose it is very possible they used chariots (wains). I think they would definitely have used cavalry, and used them to great effect (like Rohan) on the open field. I also believe with their knowledge of smithing and construction skills (due to their armor and military uniformity) I believe they would have had chariots (or something similar). If not for battle then definitely for transportation (carts, wagons, etc.) A cart or wagon can easily be outfitted for battle, but as battles involving cavalry require swift light units (speed and timing are often the key) they would have had to lighten the carts or wagons and essentially had been left with a chariot, or wain. The chariots used by the Celts were used to drop off fresh fighters on the front lines and take tired ones back, these chariots could also be used in the same way, as well as mobile ranged units or even shock units.

    Let the flaming begin!


    EDIT: Oh and one final note, I like how Evan Frayling started this thread as a poll, rather than just saying "There should be armored Mamukil."
    Last edited by gee8648; September 25, 2009 at 01:51 PM.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Just to give the lore information and my interpretation:

    Tolkien makes specific mention of the Chariots only TWICE in his writings. First is the original Wainrider invasions of 1600 T.A. Later during the Balchoth invasions, said to be related to the wainriders, no mention of wains or chariots is mentioned. Then with regards to the War of the Ring he describes the Easterlings arriving for war with "...chariots of chieftains and laden wains." There is no mention of chariots at the Battle of Pellennor. A wain, for those unfamiliar with the term is actually a open wagon and not a chariot. The fact they are "laden" one has to assume that they were laden with either goods or people. Meaning they weren't used for war but used for transportation. With regards to the chariots the most we can assume is that Tolkien intended that the Warlords and Cheiftains of the Easterlings commanded from chariots (much like ancient greeks) and did not fight in them. Additionally in the same war host Tolkien describes "...bowmen upon horses." The horse archer was a natural progression of chariot archery and having them totally removes the need for mobile archery platforms in the form of chariots or wains. Given all of these facts I have come to the conclusion that chariots were likely not something the Easterlings of the late Third Age used in war and that they filled more a command platform and ceremonial role.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    13 vs 64 can we stop with the armored Mumakil now?

    Also: DG makes the Easterlings... they're his faction... he's said no to both armored Mumaks and chariots like 15,000 times in multiple threads. So if you really want them so badly make them yourself and have them in your own submod dude.

  7. #67
    Maca's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by gee8648 View Post
    EDIT: Oh and one final note, I like how Evan Frayling started this thread as a poll, rather than just saying "There should be armored Mamukil."

    Actually, Evan said before in several threads that these should be made before this poll was made. Nothing wrong with that, it's how many ideas are started, I just happen not to agree with this one.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
    Just to give the lore information and my interpretation:

    Tolkien makes specific mention of the Chariots only TWICE in his writings. First is the original Wainrider invasions of 1600 T.A. Later during the Balchoth invasions, said to be related to the wainriders, no mention of wains or chariots is mentioned. Then with regards to the War of the Ring he describes the Easterlings arriving for war with "...chariots of chieftains and laden wains." There is no mention of chariots at the Battle of Pellennor. A wain, for those unfamiliar with the term is actually a open wagon and not a chariot. The fact they are "laden" one has to assume that they were laden with either goods or people. Meaning they weren't used for war but used for transportation. With regards to the chariots the most we can assume is that Tolkien intended that the Warlords and Cheiftains of the Easterlings commanded from chariots (much like ancient greeks) and did not fight in them. Additionally in the same war host Tolkien describes "...bowmen upon horses." The horse archer was a natural progression of chariot archery and having them totally removes the need for mobile archery platforms in the form of chariots or wains. Given all of these facts I have come to the conclusion that chariots were likely not something the Easterlings of the late Third Age used in war and that they filled more a command platform and ceremonial role.
    This'll be my new "official" response to any future chariot inquiries, thanks.

  9. #69
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Ok I am going to propose a slight variation to my original proposal. All I really wanted was a slight variation in the look of the Mumakil.

    What about having a slightly heavier unit that had a slightly better constructed tower, and possible more glamour such as a plate of armour on its head, around its tusks and around its legs?

  10. #70
    gee8648's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by Maca View Post
    Actually, Evan said before in several threads that these should be made before this poll was made. Nothing wrong with that, it's how many ideas are started, I just happen not to agree with this one.
    You are correct, except that I was referring to this thread. I like how when one suggests an idea and asks the rest of the community what they think and that way its much easier to see what the community likes and dislikes, given that there is a graph as opposed to reading page after page of posts. Sorry I guess I should have elaborated a bit more, I was at work so I had to type fast they tend to frown upon people.. not working, go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
    Just to give the lore information and my interpretation:

    Tolkien makes specific mention of the Chariots only TWICE in his writings. First is the original Wainrider invasions of 1600 T.A. Later during the Balchoth invasions, said to be related to the wainriders, no mention of wains or chariots is mentioned. Then with regards to the War of the Ring he describes the Easterlings arriving for war with "...chariots of chieftains and laden wains." There is no mention of chariots at the Battle of Pellennor. A wain, for those unfamiliar with the term is actually a open wagon and not a chariot. The fact they are "laden" one has to assume that they were laden with either goods or people. Meaning they weren't used for war but used for transportation. With regards to the chariots the most we can assume is that Tolkien intended that the Warlords and Cheiftains of the Easterlings commanded from chariots (much like ancient greeks) and did not fight in them. Additionally in the same war host Tolkien describes "...bowmen upon horses." The horse archer was a natural progression of chariot archery and having them totally removes the need for mobile archery platforms in the form of chariots or wains. Given all of these facts I have come to the conclusion that chariots were likely not something the Easterlings of the late Third Age used in war and that they filled more a command platform and ceremonial role.
    And I stand corrected as I knew I would, but like I said in my post my knowledge in many things Tolkien is very limited. And I would agree with your assumptions based on what you have supplied for us here. Well I wasn't too far off, transportation, carts, etc.
    Last edited by gee8648; September 25, 2009 at 05:57 PM.
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  11. #71

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Frayling View Post
    Ok I am going to propose a slight variation to my original proposal. All I really wanted was a slight variation in the look of the Mumakil.

    What about having a slightly heavier unit that had a slightly better constructed tower, and possible more glamour such as a plate of armour on its head, around its tusks and around its legs?
    More reasonable, I suppose.

    In my additional units, I suppose I could add them, using the unique units code. Give it the tuskweapons as well you can see in the film - alternatively, use it as an increased armour type.

    For chariots - IMHO keep them as an ancillary.
    Last edited by Vaz; September 26, 2009 at 05:07 AM.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Frayling View Post
    Ok I am going to propose a slight variation to my original proposal. All I really wanted was a slight variation in the look of the Mumakil.

    What about having a slightly heavier unit that had a slightly better constructed tower, and possible more glamour such as a plate of armour on its head, around its tusks and around its legs?
    You really don't give up do you?

    But I like the idea, I would like the kind of barbed wire between the tusks you see in the RotK, and an metal or golden plate on it's forehead with a kind of Snake engraved in it. A kind of "Elite" Mumakil, perhaps with some more painted decorations, or make Serpent Guard Archers and put those on it's back instead of "normal" Haradhrim archers, though this would be hard, as you need permission.

  13. #73
    Maca's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Frayling View Post
    Ok I am going to propose a slight variation to my original proposal. All I really wanted was a slight variation in the look of the Mumakil.

    What about having a slightly heavier unit that had a slightly better constructed tower, and possible more glamour such as a plate of armour on its head, around its tusks and around its legs?
    This... I actually like!
    Much better than the all, armoured Mumak. Admittedly, I am not sure about what this would add to the mod that normal Mumaks don't already have.
    Last edited by Maca; September 26, 2009 at 12:09 PM.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    "Veteran" or "Royal" Mūmakil would be a better idea, with richer paint decorations, some sort of bamboo/clothing decoration/"armour", piky stuff strapped to the tusks, et cetera. Slapping armour on something to distinguish it as elite is such a run-of-the-mill way of doing things, and goes against the feel of Haradrim and, especially, the look they're presented in the films, imho.

    Still, I'm not convinced that you need a second unit for Mūmakil, but if one is to be included, I'd rather have one that doesn't seem to out-of-place in its to-be context.

  15. #75
    gee8648's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    A much better idea, and totally believable too!

    Sort of like pimp my ride LOTR style
    Last edited by gee8648; September 26, 2009 at 09:51 AM.
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  16. #76

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Why not, an armoured Hell elephant! The game's hard enough already, a supreme war-oliphaunt won't make much diffrence to my Riddermark Skirmishers! Gondor's usually dead well in the first part of my campaigns anyhoo.

  17. #77
    Evan MF's Avatar Vicarius
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    Icon3 Re: Kataphract Mumakil

    Well I'm glad we have reached more of a comprimise ...

    I have poated a bunch of pics of persian and indain war elephants and also Mumakil that we can examine and possible construct the look of the Mumakil together. We can pick and mix aspects of each one to make an awesome Mumakil. I hope we can do this together! and hopefull it might change your views on the original idea or create future ideas ... I would like this to be a team effort!!

    We can verbally construvt the Mumakil, using the pics to help or with our own ideas

    The pics are numbered.

    (Geat Ready) Here are the pics:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    PIC1

    PIC 2

    PIC 3

    PIC 4

    PIC 5

    PIC 6

    PIC 7

    PIC 8

    PIC 9

    PIC 10

    PIC 11


    Original Mumakil from LOTR filmls and TATW Mods:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    PIC 12

    PIC 13

    PIC 14
    Last edited by Evan MF; September 26, 2009 at 10:19 PM.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil / Mumakil Innovation

    Steps on how to make Forces of evil more overpowered

    Step 1: Make Armoured Trolls *Check*
    Step 2: Make Armoured Mumakil*check*
    Step 3: ????

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  19. #79
    zorro59's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil / Mumakil Innovation

    step 3 - fellbeast
    step 4 - balrog
    step 5 - sauron
    step 6 - dragons
    Just to be honest i really like 3-4-5

  20. #80

    Default Re: Kataphract Mumakil / Mumakil Innovation

    Actually a 'Royal Mumak' would be pretty cool imo.

    It should be larger than "normal" mumakil (though not by an excessive amount) because the Royal Mumak would be an older animal, tested in battle many times and even revered by the Haradrim, a kind of an "alpha bull" among its peers.

    It still wouldn't wear actual armour but its age and battle experience would mean it has thicker skin than other mumakil. It would be adorned with "tatoos"/war paint in lavish colours and perhaps some 'persian carpet' style decorations probably with a red/gold colour theme.

    The tusks could be steel reinforced and perhaps laced with gold while the enlarged tower would carry archers drafted from the Serpent Guard.

    It would have the "inspires nearby troops" ability since it would represent the power of Haradrian Kings/Chiefs and simply because it'd be an awe-inspiring sight. It'd have increased morale since its experience would allow it to remain calm in battle more easily. It might even have the 'run amok' trait removed to represent its immense discipline but that might be a bit too much.

    Availability should be very limited, recruitable in only 1 or 2 towns with a very slow replenishment rate (kinda like the citadel guard). Once recruited it would represent a unique centerpiece of the Haradrian army.

    It'd be an 'elegant' stretch of the lore imo.
    Last edited by Jean=A=Luc; September 27, 2009 at 05:50 AM.

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