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  1. #1
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Religion in AUH

    The limitation with recruitment started to tick me off, and since people seem to all be away and not around to help test things right now I decided to sidetrack to religion. Now initially my idea for religion had been to re-use a set of buildings so that a number of "lesser" religions could be represented as well, but there were and still are to many complications with that, including but not limited to the effects of religious conversion. So I came up with a new idea for how to make religion interesting without deviating from some of the normal concepts, but at the same time representing more than just a set of religious structures, but rather how a settlement might approach religion and religious tolerance.

    So here's what I've come to for a general blueprint for our 8 main religions.

    Religious Structures

    Each religion has its own building set, which uses the temple_ function of the EDB to allow it to convert to a certain religion. That means one tree each for Islam, Daoxue, Mahayana, Theravada, Vajrayana, Tengriism, and Nestorian(new addition). We have one more slot left, and we have three religions to choose from in filling it: Hinduism, Traditional Daoism, and Shinto. I'm leaning towards the former as the latter two have doctrines similar to existing religions.

    The blueprint for religious buildings is as follows:

    Lvl 1: Policy - Allowing Practice of "X" Religion
    The first step for a settlement in providing religious facility for its populace is to allow the private practice of a religion. To a moderner this right seems basic and inalienable, but in the 12th Century religious persecution was much more than asking you to remove your headgear. Intolerance was not as rife in East Asia as it was in Europe at this time, but religious entities still conflicted at all levels of society.

    Providing a populace the right to practice their religion in private is the first step. By allowing them to maintain their beliefs, even if only in the privacy of the home, a settlement insures that it doesn't completely alienate its populace.

    Large religious populations provided only this right and no further facilities are prone to rebellion, but it depends on just how many there are. The risk rises from low steeply to a certainty after a certain point, as up until that point the people are spread out and thus unaware just how much power they hold. Certain other factors may facilitate this, such as the outbreak of a 'scarved movement'.

    This policy doesn't lend itself to the further conversion of any members of the population.

    Lvl 2: Policy - Allowing Organized Practice of "X" Religion
    The organized practice of religion is institutionally different than private practice. Public allowances mean that, at least to some extent, practitioners are able to find others who hold their beliefs to congregate with. This congregation is not permitted a sense of officialdom, so while a religious leader may emerge they have no vested authority and lead on the basis of their charisma and interpretations.

    Large religious populations provided only this right and no facilities are prone to rebellion, but to a lesser extent than those with a Temple because they are less inclined to form a cohesive unit.

    This policy doesn't lend itself to the further conversion of members of the population.

    Lvl 3: Temple of "X" Religion
    A temple provides a place where practitioners of a religion can congregate with some sense of official sanction. The temple generally has a staff, clergy, or other religious organ that runs and operates it for the practitioners. Methods for revenue generation to sustain the facilities vary from location to location, but temples are granted the same level of entrepreneurial autonomy as local businesses.

    As a temple is only a plot of land in the larger settlement, there are problems with commuting from a residence to its location if one does not live nearby. Temples as such tend to inadvertently create religious ghettos when all practitioners need to coalesce in one location. As such, when a temple is all that is provided to a large amount of people in a settlement, they are perhaps the most prone to causing unrest and potential rebellion due to being organized.

    A temple very slightly impacts the religious conversion in a settlement, just enough to counteract some of the other religious forces acting on it and hopefully preserve the minority religious demographic.
    Lvl 4: Basic Temple Infrastructure of "X" Religion
    A basic temple infrastructure provides more of an institution for the practice of a religion. This could be anything from a network of small temples throughout a settlement to a few regional temples overseen by a slightly larger central temple. The practice is less confined and will often result in the branching out of religious practitioners for convenience of workplace, unceremoniously uprooting the religious ghetto due to a more accessible religious infrastructure.

    Large religious populations are less likely to rebel when provided with an infrastructure, barring external influences. If they do rebel though it is harder to put down than the small uprisings of ghettos.

    A basic temple infrastructure exerts stronger forces of conversion upon the populace through the spread of religious ideas and a greater public appeal.
    LVl 5: Basic Temple Infrastructure + Monasteries of "X" Religion
    The allowance of monasteries in a settlement and its surrounding area, in addition to a basic infrastructure, is a means of validating the practice of monasticism. Through this practice a religion gains greater influence in a region, as its practitioners tend to become more involved in humanitarian affairs and their devotion inspires others to convert.

    The allowance of monasteries decreases the risk of organized religious rebellion, but also gives rise to fanatics who can lead dangerous derivations of a main religion and come into open conflict with the religious institutions.

    The addition of monasteries increases the conversion forces in a region through the self-validating asceticism of a new class of devout monastics.

    Lvl 6: Policy - Allowing Public Observation of Religious Traditions
    Most religions contain some traditions which are more public in their display than can be contained within religious locations. This can be anything from the ṣalāt of Islam to the celebration of religious holidays. That all practices of this religion are permitted in any public place is a large step in tolerance.

    Observance of religious traditions entails a public display of religious devotion, and with that comes some conflict. If a settlement is divided between two differing religions it can cause unrest, but naturally it also causes happiness.

    The increased publicity of the religion also increased its exertion on conversion of the populace.

    Lvl 7: Extensive Temple Infrastructure + Monasteries of "X" Religion
    Extensive investment in the development of religious infrastructure yields unprecedented access to facilities and a centralized organization of religious officials. These large religious societies produce men of great piety and charisma who can help spread the faith to distant lands.

    Conversion forces are significantly strong in settlements with an extensive religious infrastructure. They also enable the training of priests.

    Lvl 8: Grand Temple
    A Grand Temple serves as a beacon to practitioners in the region and a representation of the importance the religion holds in the settlement. It is both a testament to the faith of its followers and an intimidating basilisk to those of other faiths.

    The construction of a grand temple prevents the further development of alternate religious infrastructure in a settlement beyond basic privileges.

    As virtually a symbol of a regional official religion, it has an enormous effect on conversion in the region.

    Lvl 9: Wondrous Temple
    The Wondrous Temple is a marvel of architecture and a symbol of everlasting piety. It shines like a beacon to practitioners far and wide and greatly strengthens religious devotion.

    Each faction may only build one wondrous temple. A wondrous temple may only be built after several grand temples to the same religion have been constructed.

    The wondrous temple provides a huge factionwide boost to religious conversion. It also makes impossible the further development of religious infrastructure separate from its represented religion in all owned settlements.

    Every settlement has the capability to build every building theoretically. However, there are numerous limitations which make that actuality impossible, to better represent how religions act on each other in both passive and aggressive ways. For starters, every religious building requires an increasing amount of practitioners in the settlement to order the construction of.

    Level 1: 2%
    Level 2: 5%
    Level 3: 10%
    Level 4: 18%
    Level 5: 30%
    Level 6: 45%
    Level 7: 65%
    Level 8: 100% + Huge City
    Level 9: 100% + Huge City

    These numbers are somewhat arbitrary, there's thought put into their values but they can be balanced and changed as necessary. The essential idea behind the requirement is that without sufficient demand for increased religious liberties there's no onus for the government of the city to provide for additional facilities. The starting numbers are initially low, because religious tolerance requires only a minority, and it gets increasingly higher as the display of the religion becomes more and more state-sponsored.

    Additionally there are the limiting factors listed above that are imposed if a Grand or Wondrous Temple to a specific religion is built.

    In addition to the denominational building trees, there is a further building tree which provides the player the ability to force religious conversion to a certain religion in a region. This includes a starter building with 8 branches, one for each religion. Each branch requires at least Level 4 of the religious denominational building to be commissioned, and causes significant revolt risk and unhappiness.

    Effects of Religious Structures

    A key component of the religious system is varying effects capabilities for denominational structures based on the population religious demographics. A population will be happier with an extensive religious network if they're 100% of that religion than if they're 50% of that religion. Similarly, the larger the infrastructure and the smaller the population demographic, the more the happiness tends to invert as the majority are dissatisfied with the significant presence of a minority religion. Furthermore, religious doctrines themselves are disposed to work in cohesion with some or no other religions, and work against others still. A predominantly Islamic region won't take kindly to religious constructs of differing beliefs, and under a policy of intolerance may even destroy all buildings of different religions.

    These factors act to represent the fluent impact of religious distribution on differing populace demographics. It also counteracts the notion that you can compound happiness bonuses by getting the highest building in one religion, converting to another, and then getting the highest in that religion as well. That simply wouldn't be the case, as the infrastructure of the former religion would fall into disrepair as the settlement tries to support to much religion, and it would end up being a negative impact. The player will have to either invest in infrastructure that suits the current populace, or actively seek to mold the populace to the infrastructure being created, a potentially perilous endeavor.

    A Cultural Policy can mitigate some of the effects of religious over-spill and increase the effects of tolerance and intolerance.

    Religious Tolerance

    Every faction will have a factionwide policy on their religious tolerance: Extreme Tolerance, Moderate Tolerance, Moderate Intolerance, or Extreme Intolerance. Each faction will start with a preset policy based on their historical faction disposition, and certain events will enable them to change that policy, such as the selection of a Cultural Policy or the inauguration of a pious leader. This policy affects religious conversion to the state religion as well as a variety of other considerations.

    State Religion

    Any faction can in theory sponsor any of the eight religions as its state religion. Some of these conversions will be harder than others and all of them will come with opposing forces. This script needs to be written still.
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; September 22, 2009 at 10:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Things I want to figure out:

    - Can indicators like temple_ and hinterland_ be used on the building level and not just the building set level.

    - Can the building_present_min_level or any of the similar conditions listed in this thread work on a capabilities line.

    - Will the "building_min" parameter that is used for plug-ins work for regular buildings as well.

    - Can a settlement be supplied to the population_religion scripting commands.

    - More in-depth observance of the effects of religion_level and amplify_religion_level.

    - Do priests only convert to the state religion of a faction, or do they convert to the temple they were built to associate with? Similarly do priests left over from before a conversion convert to the old religion?
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; September 22, 2009 at 10:30 PM.

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    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Some more things I've found out or want to figure out:

    - The temple_ prefix does not need to be applied in order to let a building convert to a religion. Thankfully they're disambiguated, which is good because temple_ makes it so no other buildings that begin with temple_ can be built in the settlement, functionality we don't want.

    - The following building conditionals were gleaned from the EXE, some were already known, others need to be tested:

    region_religion ~ % of given religion in the region
    marian_reforms ~ Have the marian reforms happened? (Deprecated?)
    building_factions ~ Unknown. (Hex says: Can only be used in capability conditions)
    port ~ Is there a port (white pixel) in this region?
    building_present_min_level ~ Is the building present at a minimum of this level in the settlement?
    building_present ~ Is the specified building present? (Does it mean level or tree?)

    - By using the building capability religion_level bonus 1 it effectively applies 1% conversion to that religion each turn. Multiple conversion buildings have been observed working at the same time, but I haven't tested trying to effect a bunch of them all at once.

    - I'd speculate that it would add 1 to a religion and take it from whatever the highest or next highest is, will need to test this theory though.

    - Need to find the limits of religion_level and amplify_religion_level, whether or not decimal values can be used, and whether negative integers can be supplied.

  4. #4
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    I want to know more about the prevalent religions in our factions. I've been reading up some and while a few can be classified fairly easily, others I'm having a harder time with. Really there's only four nations I have certainty as to their state religion, which are:

    Ghurid: Islam
    Song: Daoxue
    Mongols: Tengriism
    Tibet: 'Vajrayana'

    The other ones I'm not all that sure about. I know that indochina was an amalgamation of (Theravada?) Buddhism, Islam, and Hinduism, though not what was prominent in each of the factions. I also know that the Japanese factions practice 'Shinto' which was a combination of spirit worship and (Mahayana?) Buddhism. The Khitans were presumably Islamic, the Jin, Dali, and Xi Xia all seem to be Buddhist though what classification I'm unsure of.

    So going back over it here's our current religion list:

    - Mahayana Buddhism
    - Theravada Buddhism
    - Vajrayana Buddhism
    - Daoxue ('Neo-Confucian')
    - Islam
    - Tengriism
    - Nestorian Christianity

    We came up with this list a while ago, Nestorian was added recently to it though it's tenuous and can be replaced if necessary, and there's still one spot open for something like Hinduism. The problem is I'm trying to make sure we can classify the state religions of all 15 of our primary factions under one of these main headers.

    What was 'Theravada Buddhism', for instance, from what I've read up on it, its influence seems to fall on the borders of our playable area but not expressly within our area. Are any of our countries classed primarily as this form of Buddhism?

    And is it proper that we're classifying Tibetan Buddhism as 'Vajrayana'? The practices in Tibet at the time are probably as diverse as the entirety of Europe in the same time period. We hear of the Kadam(renewed teachings of Atisha), Sakya, and Kagyu schools being established by Indian masters in the 11th Century, as well as the revival of Buddhist texts lost since the 9th Century, Nyingma, and an organized version of the native Bon religion.

    It's obviously impossible to perfectly represent religion in Asia, especially Buddhism, using the TW system. Either we can allow for religion shifts and scenarios, or allow for factional sub-diversity. We're opting for the former mainly because the latter is unable to be affected onto any game mechanics and would just wind up being historical fluff. Obviously though, there's hundreds of schools of Buddhism that come and go, not to speak of the traditional practices of all regions such as Bon in Tibet or Kami in Japan, which can't be so easily classified. Nevertheless we must classify them in a general sense, be it in the way shown above or under slightly different headers.

    Perhaps 'Mahayana' is too broad, as it seems to encompass the majority of Buddhist practices on the East Asian sub-continent, including the traditions brought over to Tibet, those brought to Japan, those practiced by the northern tribes, and those practiced by the Indochinese nations. All Buddhism seems to flow from India and the bulk of that flow seems to occur in tantric Mahayana practice or Pure Land Mahayana practice. We really need to take a look at how we're representing Buddhism and come to some decisions with it.

    So what I want to know is:
    • What are the precepts of our religions, or 'religious headers'?
    • Can we classify all of our factions, fairly, under one of the above 'religions'? And what should each be classed as?
    • If not, are any of the above 'religions' not prevalent within our area and can thus be removed?
    • Similarly, would the introduction of different religions instead allow for a fairer representation of state religions?


    It's like I'm talking to myself here.

  5. #5
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Split some posts off into the General Discussion as we were veering off-topic.

    Back on topic, does anyone have any thoughts on where state sponsorship of the transliteration of religious scripture should fall on the tiers? Maybe in with Level 6 and the Observing of Public Traditions?
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; September 30, 2009 at 05:23 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    The Khitan shouldn't be Muslim, since most of them chose not to convert for a variety of reasons which I will not go into detail here but I think you should have them as Mahayana (most logical) or Tengrist( second best choice) Daoxue ( The Upper Echelons were Confucian) or if all else fails Nestorianism (They compromised a small portion of the populace)

    Making them Muslim would be as weird as making the Mongols at the beginning of the game Mahayana. While they were regarded as Pagan by Muslim observers they were generally ignored because of their good relations and tolerance with the civilian populace.

    From the little I know about SE Asia was many states were undergoing a religious conversion from Mahayana Buddhism to Theravada Buddhism at this time. So it would be appropriate to make the Southeast Asian nations Theravada. eg. Pagan

    So to just give a summary of what each faction's religious affiliation should be based on research;

    ~Goryeo- Mahayana. Trying to depict Confucianism as a religion is going to be impractical so I would ere on the side of Mahayana
    ~ Jin Dynasty-Mahayana
    ~ Song Dynasty-Daoxue
    ~ Kara-Khitan Khanate-Mahayana reasons given above
    ~ Kingdom of Dali-Mahayana
    ~ Mongol Khanate-Tengriism
    ~ Khmer Empire-Theravada
    ~ Tibetan Kingdoms-Vajrayana
    ~ Dai Viet-Mahayana
    ~ Xi Xia-Mahayana
    ~ Taira Clan-Mahayana
    ~ Minamoto Clan-Mahayana
    ~ Kingdom of Champa-Hindu or if not possible Therevada
    ~ Pagan Kingdom-Therevada
    ~ Ghurid Sultanate -Islam


    Most nations in this game thus will be Mahayana.

  7. #7
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Okay great, that's exactly what I'm looking for in terms of faction classifications. I'll add Hindu to the mod as our last religion, and update the factions to the state religions you've listed. Going to set all of the faction settlements to 100% their religion right now until we get an in-depth look on a region by region basis at what the demographics should be.

    And I expected that most would be Mahayana, it seems like the most prevalent form of Buddhism, but that just makes things more interesting for those who are of a different religion and for the prospect of religious conversions. I'm also thinking that perhaps the Tanguts should have a significant Vajrayana contingent, and a smaller Tengriism contingent, possibly a little Islam as well, though primarily Mahayana. I get the impression from what I've read of them that their language and culture is largely grouped in with Tibet and many of their Buddhist texts that were transliterated into the iconographic Tangut written language could have thus been of Vajrayana origins.

    Another open question to anyone, mainly for gameplay reasons. Should all factions be able to convert to all religions? Or, should some factions only be able to convert to some religions? Do we want a 'nearest neighbor' type penalty for religious conversion, where it's easier to go from Mahayana to Theravada than from Islam to Tengriism?

    My own 2c are that for 'roleplay' reasons it might be prudent to allow for all manner of religious conversions, and just make it harder for some and significantly harder for others, but I want opinions on these gameplay considerations since we're all going to play the game.
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; September 30, 2009 at 06:58 PM.

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    Marcion's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    In addition to the denominational building trees, there is a further building tree which provides the player the ability to force religious conversion to a certain religion in a region. This includes a starter building with 8 branches, one for each religion. Each branch requires at least Level 4 of the religious denominational building to be commissioned, and causes significant revolt risk and unhappiness.
    This seems a bit much. For the sake of keeping the player interested, I think we should keep it to the structure that's already listed. Also, I think we should make each faction have a hard-coded national religion. With what's here now it sounds like if you got rich enough, you could have one city which was Muslim, one city that's Hindu, and another that Tengriist all sitting right next to each other... In Japan. You should be alowed to shape you civilization within limits, just like how you can't create your own units or buildings, you can't force your subjects into some totally alien tradition. Historically, forced conversions never truly worked anyway.

    As for can be done with the religion, the mechanic that comes to mind would be an increasing level of happiness coming with developing the state religion, while an increased level of trade income comes with increasing tolerance of others. But once you get past a certain point of tolerance, this starts to negatively affect happiness (as most of the populace are presumably of the national religion). Maybe more tolerance also yields an increased population growth, which could make for an explosive situation if not managed properly. Some other negative side effects like the chance of generals/governors becoming apostate should be considered for tolerance as well.

    And a comment of the religion list, some of these, such as Hinduism and Tengriism (which is really just shamanism/animism) weren't proselytizing i. e. they didn't try to convert anyone. I know with the Hindus you really can't be a Hindu unless you're born one. I don't know about the Mongol tradition, but I doubt anyone was ever in a rush to convert to that either. So that needs to be considered as well.

  9. #9
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcion View Post
    This seems a bit much. For the sake of keeping the player interested, I think we should keep it to the structure that's already listed. Also, I think we should make each faction have a hard-coded national religion. With what's here now it sounds like if you got rich enough, you could have one city which was Muslim, one city that's Hindu, and another that Tengriist all sitting right next to each other... In Japan. You should be alowed to shape you civilization within limits, just like how you can't create your own units or buildings, you can't force your subjects into some totally alien tradition. Historically, forced conversions never truly worked anyway.
    That building probably won't be added, as 'forced religion' is perhaps a misinterpreted notion and could be precarious at a regional level. Such initiatives don't employ punishment for lack of conversion as forcing would imply, but rather institutional policies which make proliferation of other religions difficult, such as the banning of transliteration of certain kinds of religious scripture, or the expulsion of key religious figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcion View Post
    As for can be done with the religion, the mechanic that comes to mind would be an increasing level of happiness coming with developing the state religion, while an increased level of trade income comes with increasing tolerance of others. But once you get past a certain point of tolerance, this starts to negatively affect happiness (as most of the populace are presumably of the national religion). Maybe more tolerance also yields an increased population growth, which could make for an explosive situation if not managed properly. Some other negative side effects like the chance of generals/governors becoming apostate should be considered for tolerance as well.
    I like the apostate idea, that's definitely one to consider, though the exact circumstances where one might apostatize would need to be elaborated upon for each religion. This is what I have as religious effects, in principle but not yet in practice(don't have one for Hinduism as at the time it wasn't on the list):
    Code:
    ;; Effects:	religion_level (T3 and above)
    ;;		amplify_religion_level (T8 and above)
    ;;		happiness_bonus (T1 and above)
    ;;		population_loyalty_bonus (T4 and above, faction religion only)
    ;;		agent priest (T7 and above, faction religion only)
    ;;		law_bonus (Daoxue, Islam)
    ;;		cavalry_bonus (Tengriism only)
    ;;		happiness_bonus (Additional) (Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana)
    ;;		amplify_religion_level (Additional) (Nestorian only)
    ;;
    ;; VnV Effects:	Unrest, Squalor
    ;;
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcion View Post
    And a comment of the religion list, some of these, such as Hinduism and Tengriism (which is really just shamanism/animism) weren't proselytizing i. e. they didn't try to convert anyone. I know with the Hindus you really can't be a Hindu unless you're born one. I don't know about the Mongol tradition, but I doubt anyone was ever in a rush to convert to that either. So that needs to be considered as well.
    You're right about Tengriism particularly, which is why the Mongols and other steppe nations eventually converted to other religions, because like all native 'religions' (Bon, Shin, etc.) it doesn't have organized doctrines and thus has less potential for retention in lieu of another full religion, especially at a time when the prospects of religions were never more appealing to people. Probably with Tengriism it will be more a matter of not converting to something else, than converting something else to Tengriism, and it would not spread outside where it is nominally present.

    With Hinduism it's harder to define, because like Tengriism it's more of a native religion than an organized religion, yet its history and spread synthesized some of its precepts into various forms. I could become a Hindu right now, it's just a matter of my acceptance of the tenets of Hinduism, and it need not be all of them. At the same time that's the appeal of Hinduism is it's very interpretable on a personal level and accepting in that respect.

    One thing about the notion of 'conversion' is it also has to represent the overall appeal of a religion. When you see people practicing a religion it's possible you'd also choose to practice it, and if you had a debate with a Hindu and your Buddhist notions were determined by yourself to be insufficient, you may also convert though not through force, but through realization. Religious 'conversion' is often the tale of the unmoved mover talked about by Aristotle, it exerts casual force on constituents without the need for institutional involvement. I'd say Hinduism would have less of an exertion than other religions though by its very nature.
    Last edited by Augustus Lucifer; September 30, 2009 at 10:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    What are we considering as far as religion-related character traits? I'd think apostasy, as far as a trait goes, would mainly effect loyalty (or authority if it was a ruler). But that could be countered with trait(s) associated with the religion they converted to.

    Yeah, I don't know anything about Cham Hinduism (or even how they came to be Hindu), so that's probably worth looking further into. Other civilizations may only be able to tolerate it up to the point of level 2 or so on the scale, since there just wouldn't be any native clergy, but there still may be self-avowed practitioners.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Couple of corrections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcry View Post
    The Khitan shouldn't be Muslim
    Yes they should. I don't want to seem obsessed (but I am) so i'll just quote from Biran to elucidate why Islam was the principal religion in most regions of the Qara Khitai realm:

    With the Qarakhanids Islam became the dominant religion in Balasaghun, Khotan and Kashgar, i.e. in Semirechye and the Tarim basin. Epigraphic and literary evidence attest that those regions remained primarily Muslim during the Qara Khitai rule as well. Many Muslims were also apparent among the Uighurs. This is attested by the early tenth century: In the reign of Abbasid Caliph al-Muqtadir, the governor of Khurasan wanted to kill the Manichaeans he would do the same to the Muslims of his lands, who were more numerous than the Manichaeans in Khurasan. In the last days of the Qara Khitai empire, one of the Idi-qut's (Uighur ruler) messangers dispatched to Chinggis Khan to announce Uighur submission was called 'Umar Oghul, evidence that he was a Muslim.

    Under the Qara Khitai Islam for the first time prevailed in the regions of Qayaliq and Almaliq, where the Qarluq rulers embraced it before the early 13th century. Qara-Khitai rule, then, did not limit the expansion of Islam. On the contrary, the large size of the empire and its relative peace facilitated further Muslim infiltration into Inner Asia.
    Of course a city like Qara Khoja (Gaochang) remained chiefly Buddhist - in fact a Buddhist monk served as the Qara Khitai governor there. We can still represent that in the religious make-up of the population. Obviously, the Khitan royal house would have "probably practised" Buddhism, but as Biran concludes "there is no evidence for a large-scale Buddhist revival". ALLAHU AKBAR !

    The Khmer did not practice Theravada Buddhism in 1180AD. They should be Mahayana - they converted to Theravada (from Sri Lanka) a bit later than their neighbouring states during the 13th century. Jayavarman VII was a Mahayanan and made Buddhism the state religion of his kingdom when he constructed the famous Buddhist temple at Bayon, at the heart of Angkor Thom. He also ushered in an immense state building programme which included many smaller temples. Whilst its true to say that Khmer rulers followed a syncretic religion, including Buddhist and Hindu elements (specifically Vishnuism) I would opt for either Mahayana or Hinduism.

    EDIT: it seems there has been a flurry of research activity - which is fantastic, but can we have a bit of opportunity for discussion rather than a single post deciding on things as crucial as religion ?
    Last edited by Yelü Dashi; October 01, 2009 at 03:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Er... I think you're again talking about people living beyond the map. The Khanids and the Khoja were two distinct groups. The reason being is that there are mountains of archaeological evidence in Gaochang and Turfan. Nearly a hundred cliff shrines and recovered texts, dozens of stupas, all showing the prevalence of Buddhism and Manichaeism. I haven't heard word one mentioned about the presence of Islam there during this timeframe, nor did I see any evidence of it when I visited the area. The Uighurs there didn't convert to Islam en masse until at least the 14th-15th century or so, when Turfan was invaded by the Timurids. Certainly there would be a muslim minority there in our time, due to contact with the khanates in the west, but it was hardly an institution. And as for your envoy "Umar", was this by chance quoted from the Arab history of the Mongol invasion?

  13. #13
    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi View Post
    EDIT: it seems there has been a flurry of research activity - which is fantastic, but can we have a bit of opportunity for discussion rather than a single post deciding on things as crucial as religion ?
    Development is fluid, everything can be changed within the bounds of reason, be it who practiced what, which regions were comprised of what, and the various effects of the religious buildings. All of those are surface values which can be altered as is necessary.

    Now, if we want to get rid of or add any other religions, or if there's a fundamental flaw in the way I've defined the 9 tiers that can't be reconciled by expanding the scope of any one building, then those concerns I'd like to hear sooner than later, because that's the fundamental stuff all of this is being built upon and I'd likely have to backtrack to change it after too long.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelü Dashi View Post
    Couple of corrections.



    Yes they should. I don't want to seem obsessed (but I am) so i'll just quote from Biran to elucidate why Islam was the principal religion in most regions of the Qara Khitai realm:



    Of course a city like Qara Khoja (Gaochang) remained chiefly Buddhist - in fact a Buddhist monk served as the Qara Khitai governor there. We can still represent that in the religious make-up of the population. Obviously, the Khitan royal house would have "probably practised" Buddhism, but as Biran concludes "there is no evidence for a large-scale Buddhist revival". ALLAHU AKBAR !

    The Khmer did not practice Theravada Buddhism in 1180AD. They should be Mahayana - they converted to Theravada (from Sri Lanka) a bit later than their neighbouring states during the 13th century. Jayavarman VII was a Mahayanan and made Buddhism the state religion of his kingdom when he constructed the famous Buddhist temple at Bayon, at the heart of Angkor Thom. He also ushered in an immense state building programme which included many smaller temples. Whilst its true to say that Khmer rulers followed a syncretic religion, including Buddhist and Hindu elements (specifically Vishnuism) I would opt for either Mahayana or Hinduism.

    EDIT: it seems there has been a flurry of research activity - which is fantastic, but can we have a bit of opportunity for discussion rather than a single post deciding on things as crucial as religion ?
    Hmm Interesting. However I thought we were making the religion of the state rather than the religion of the populace as to what is the state religion. While the Kara Khitai were Buddhist Confucian Shaminist Mix (arguably) The majority populace was Muslim. This distinction is very important for gameplay as it makes your rule more precarious than say the other states around you. You have to either convert to Islam or revive Buddhism and suffer consequences or hope that someone doesnt disrupt your balance and tenously maintain your rule. Making them Muslim doesn't seem right from a historical point of view as it would be like justifying that the Mongols in vanilla are Muslim because the majority populace they ruled were Muslim in the game.

    I recently read an article by Elizabath Endicott west onto why the Kara Khitai did not convert to Islam and it appears that since they already had a theologically sound base, a means of legitimization and the right to rule, members of the Kara Khitai did not wish to convert until their rule was threatened towards the Kuchlug coup. Thats when political conversions occurred. Additionally the rebellions of Arslan Khan and Idikut Bartuk and various other rebels could not be properly simulated unless the Kara Khitai state religion was not muslim.

    Ohkay yeah Ill just edit the post for the Khmer. Should we also note what religions they should be able to convert to or no for each of the factions

  15. #15

    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    The source is the famous Ilkhanid vizier, Rashid al-Din, who provides a wealth of information about the era. It is suggested he used Mongol sources, but he obviously has his weaknesses. Also, The Mission of Friar William of Rubrek (London, 1990) cites another Muslim source Majma'al-ansab that records 50,000 Muslims in Uighur Besh Baliq by the mid 13th century.

    You know I know the Khoja and Khanids were distinct groups - I've discussed it elsewhere. The Uighurs left a rich history of Buddhist culture in some of these regions, I have visited them too. However, recent scholarship has shown some of these Buddhist monuments date to an earlier period - the 7th-10th centuries. The Daoist priest, Chang Chun, summoned to see Chinggis, states that there were no Buddhist priests west of Changji which is roughly the point where the AUH regions - Hami, Emil and Besh Baliq meet. Add to this the fact that Buddhism in Central Asia had been weakened by Muslim attacks in the preceding centuries, as well as the lack of evidence of any Buddhist building activity by the Qara Khitai.

    Ultimately we're both right as the Khitans didn't adopt a 'state religion' and didn't embrace Islam, even the 'high religion' of Liao Khitans was in fact a form of Tantric Buddhism known as the Huayin school, rather than Mahayana . But I still feel Islam was most prevalent among the populace, was patronised by the Khitan rulers, and grew under their rulership. The sedantery communities of Buddhist Khoja Uighurs existed peacefully alongside the nomadic Muslim Turkic masses (Qarluk & Qarakhanid tribes), who were the ones expanding eastwards without meeting hostile reaction.

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    Marcion's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Thinking of it, the apostate trait would have a minus to loyalty, but a plus to piety, since you have to be pretty into your new religion to go against the grain for it.

    Also, religion-specific traits aren't sounding like such a good idea now, since that's basically stereotyping. And most characters would just end up with one set of bonuses across the board, since most will be of the state religion.

    And in regards to the question about differences in Buddhist practice (I should have brought this up before), I do have some formal education on the subject. Something important to realize is that Buddhism always tends to absorb a lot of the local flavor wherever it goes. Tibetan Buddhism is a distinctly Tibetan entity with a lot of the old folklore still more or less present, whereas the Shingon in Japan, while also "Vajrayana" is pretty different. Such is the case with Buddhism just about anywhere, and while not totally different religions, they would be unintelligible for most who aren't very knowledgable about the religion (just about everyone at the time). This applies especially to Mahayana/Vajrayana, which tended to willfully diversify into many different forms and schools more so than Theravada, which willfully adhered to the old traditions. But even that applies mainly to monastics, the laypeople would (and still have) kept up local native traditions.

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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    What about Shinto




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    Augustus Lucifer's Avatar Life = Like a beanstalk
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan Nedim View Post
    What about Shinto
    Shinto isn't a religion, it's just a label. Japanese factions practiced Mahayana Buddhism along with traditional spiritual worship, the amalgamation of which is referred to modernly as 'Shinto'. The same is true for every other faction that they had practices outside the bounds of our religious scope, such as Legalist or Daoist or Mon practices. 'Shinto' doesn't have a doctrine or sutras, so can only really be called a religion colloquially.

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    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    The concept of religion in the east is not nearly as strict as it was in the west. most factions had several things going at once. something that would be unthinkable for most Western states at the time.

    I'm just looking at the Xi-Xia book, and it seems that their buddism is a cross between Mahayana and Tibetan.
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

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    Marcion's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Religion in AUH

    That's a good point. And I'm really leaning toward the "state" religion for AUH being more like the set of long-standing religious customs that the people at large hold. Since we want to have a dynamic religious system where your lords/governors can potentially convert, I think the state's religion will really be more of the counterweight to that. So, say the Song's starting state religion is Daoxue, and you allow a lot of tolernace to Mahayana, and you get a lot of people converting to Mahayana in a couple of cities, maybe their governors too. In those places you're going to have problems with loyalty, even though allowing the religion to flourish there gets you more income. The majority of people, including most officials and coutiers aren't going to look well upon the Buddhist converts, it won't be straight out holy war, as would be the case in Europe, but the tension would still be there.

    As far as changing of this national attitude goes, that may as well just be outside the scope of the game. The only way I could see it happening realistically is if you get a majority of people in the majority of cities converting, which could probably only happen with serious foreign intervention. Maybe it's a possibility though.

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