Was Germany's Alliance With Japan A Mistake?

[jankren]

What exactly was the benefit of the alliance? All it gave was the involvement of USA in the war and added a new powerful enemy for the Germans.

[Dzhon]

The Germans were actually enthusiastic about declaring war against the United States because they could finally unleash their U-boats on the previously "neutral" US ships sailing to Britain. In addition, they believed that the US would have to dedicate most of its resources against Japan.

I don't think they were obligated to declare war by the Tripartite Pact because Japan was the aggressor.

[Azog 150]

What exactly was the benefit of the alliance? All it gave was the involvement of USA in the war and added a new powerful enemy for the Germans.

It wasn't a mistake for them to ally- however, it was a mistake for Germany to declare war on the US...

[hellheaven1987]

What exactly was the benefit of the alliance? All it gave was the involvement of USA in the war and added a new powerful enemy for the Germans.

No, it was not a mistake to ally Japan; instead, Hitler did not need to declared war on US because the alliance was a defensive one.

I don't really believe Hitler bet Japan would defeat US; he probably thought it was fun to annoy US in Pacific since he could not stop US to aid Great Britain.

[Nikitn]

It was a mistake, yes.

[jankren]

Actually I did not know that Germany declared war.

I thought they were automatically at war for being in the alliance.

I mean I should have know better after years of playing Paradox games. LOLZ

Anyway, I think Germany was already losing anyway. Thanks to the 20 million dead Rushkies. US involvement merely sped it up.

[Nikitn]

Actually I did not know that Germany declared war.

I thought they were automatically at war for being in the alliance.

I mean I should have know better after years of playing Paradox games. LOLZ

Anyway, I think Germany was already losing anyway. Thanks to the 20 million dead Rushkies. US involvement merely sped it up.

It were 7,000,000 KIA, for your informational

[RomanSoldier9001]

It were 7,000,000 KIA, for your informational

Actualy he was rigth the Soviet Union had 23,954,000 of casulaties.
Man whats up with you Nikitn? With all respect why are you dening everything about Soviet Union that people post here in TW center ; talking about a big ego most of these facts and numbers were investigated dont believe always in Soviet Propaganda. Man sometimes you talk like you were still living in Soviet Union.

But Japan would be entering an offensive war with weak supply lines into SIBERIA.

No reward for Japan in this one

How about the reward of wining the war? xD

But they needed oil.

Doesnt Siberia has oil and other resources?

[Georgy Zhukov]

Actualy he was rigth the Soviet Union had 23,954,000 of casulaties.
Man whats up with you Nikitn? With all respect why are you dening everything about Soviet Union that people post here in TW center ; talking about a big ego most of these facts and numbers were investigated dont believe always in Soviet Propaganda. Man sometimes you talk like you were still living in Soviet Union.

Notice: KIA means Killed in action, he's referring to soviet troops lost in military conflicts not civilians in German occupation and war zones.

Doesnt Siberia has oil and other resources?

It also has -60 degree temperatures 6 months every year and for the other 6 months its a muddy mess.

[RomanSoldier9001]

[QUOTE=Brock Samson;5997725]

Notice: KIA means Killed in action, he's referring to soviet troops lost in military conflicts not civilians in German occupation and war zones.

Oh ya , I tougth he mean both since he say soviet casulaties anyway 7 milions military deaths is minize it would be 8,800,000 to 10,700,000 military casulaties and I think is hard to distingue civilains from military in Eastern Front were partizans counted as civilians or military?

It also has -60 degree temperatures 6 months every year and for the other 6 months its a muddy mess.

Japanese saw worse they fougth in jungles whats the difference to snow. Only in desert japanese suck.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%...se_Border_Wars

It does. But it would be 10 times more hard to conquer than European half of Russia, let alone the fact that Japanese army could not be comparable to German. It would be like Winter War for Japanese.

It would be hard no doubt but with most of army figthing the germans they only had the Siberians Units that were indeed very strong this Siberian Units were the ones that saved Moscow and of course were confortble with terrain and weather.
They were strong soldiers but so were the japanese ,Japanese Imperial Army hadnt fougth in jungle before WWII but after sometime they were confortble with it.

[Nikitn]

Actualy he was rigth the Soviet Union had 23,954,000 of casulaties.
Man whats up with you Nikitn? With all respect why are you dening everything about Soviet Union that people post here in TW center ; talking about a big ego most of these facts and numbers were investigated dont believe always in Soviet Propaganda. Man sometimes you talk like you were still living in Soviet Union.

You again. Dude, I've already told you to stop trolling. No, I AM right. During the War the Red Army suffered less then 7,000,000 KIA, against Axis 5,200,000 KIA on the Eastern front.

More then 3,000,000 Soviet POW's died in German "POW Camps" (death rate was nearly as high as wtih Jews), so that amounts to a total of 10,000,000 military dead.

Please educate yourself, OK? Instead of calling me a liar and the like.

How about the reward of wining the war? xD

Doesnt Siberia has oil and other resources?

1. Japan attacking Siberia would be fruitless. It would be a China, just with well trained and equipped opponents (Soviet Siberian forces).

They already got their noses bloodied at Khalkin Gol, and then cancelled any further ambitions.

2. Yes, Siberia was rich in resources but that was far, far away from the Far East. The Japanese had much more to gain to attack Indonesia for the oil and rubber they needed.

[QUOTE=RomanSoldier9001;5997864]

Oh ya , I tougth he mean both since he say soviet casulaties anyway 7 milions military deaths is minize it would be 8,800,000 to 10,700,000 military casulaties and I think is hard to distingue civilains from military in Eastern Front were partizans counted as civilians or military?

What ? It was 10,000,000 dead in total. However, 1/3 of those were killed in Nazi Concentration camps, just like the Jews were.

Japanese saw worse they fougth in jungles whats the difference to snow. Only in desert japanese suck.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%...se_Border_Wars


It would be hard no doubt but with most of army figthing the germans they only had the Siberians Units that were indeed very strong this Siberian Units were the ones that saved Moscow and of course were confortble with terrain and weather.
They were strong soldiers but so were the japanese ,Japanese Imperial Army hadnt fougth in jungle before WWII but after sometime they were confortble with it.

What? Man, Japan didn't even have the manpower to defeat the hundred of thousands Siberian soldiers there.

Japanese command decided they would never try to conquer Siberia already in late 1930's.

[gsoxx]

You again. Dude, I've already told you to stop trolling. No, I AM right. During the War the Red Army suffered less then 7,000,000 KIA, against Axis 5,200,000 KIA on the Eastern front.

Why don't you just bring a reliable source to shut him up?

[Tiberius Tosi]

Actually I did not know that Germany declared war.

I thought they were automatically at war for being in the alliance.

No, according to the treaty between Germany and Japan, neither side necessarily had to declare war that the other declared war on. For example Japan never declared war on Russia (very wise decision).

Likewise, Germany did not have to declare war on the US.

[emperorpenguin]

Including civilians it does exceed 20 million.

[Poach]

Jankern is right though, Germany was losing on the Eastern Front already by the time the US entered the war. US entry to the war simply put an end to any possibility of a German comeback.

As such, I don't think their Alliance with Japan was a mistake, but declaring war on the US was, they destroyed any possibility of a victory by bring the US in against them.

[Boyar Son]

Jankern is right though, Germany was losing on the Eastern Front already by the time the US entered the war. US entry to the war simply put an end to any possibility of a German comeback.

I wouldn't say Germany got knocked out so early in late '41 beginning '42..when the US entered the war right?

[jankren]

But even if Germany didnt declare war, I doubt the US would remain neutral forever. They would probably in the end make war just to stop Russia from engulfing the entire Europe.

It were 7,000,000 KIA, for your informational

Whats your problem?

[conon394]

Jankern is right though, Germany was losing on the Eastern Front already by the time the US entered the war. US entry to the war simply put an end to any possibility of a German comeback.

That's pushing it Germany was hardly loosing in 41.

In any case not a bad decision or rather certainly less worse than any number of others - the problem is in retrospect the very fact of allied victory and axis defeat makes it easy to argue it was a bad decision, but at the time it was rather good given what Germany knew at the time.

First the US was more or less a co-belligerent to the UK and USSR anyway anyone LL was extended to anyone fighting Germany. Give German underestimates [and in fairness it take take the US some years to ramp up production] of US industrial potential, and it own inflated totals for ship tonnage sunk it likely seemed like a good risk eliminating the neutrality FDR was pushing steadily closer to the shores of the UK. Germany also likely hoped Japan would take a harsher view of US supplies to the USSR via the Pacific, it didn't work that way but at the time it certainly would not happen without a declaration of war on the US by Germany.

Plus, Japan attacked the UK as well so even if Germany did not declare war FDR was going to be at war with somebody and allied to the UK he could us war powers and simply plan a bit different. Say initially agreeing that the US would fight Japan first, and defend all allied interests in the Pacific, the UK could than divert all resources to the ETO. Even Canada for example could be defended under the guise of the threat of Japaneses invasion.

Also Germany could not really know ahead of time just how bad Japanese strategic execution would be. Had Japan listen to Germany and made sustained and navel or even submarine efforts into the Indian ocean post 41, the Allies would have faced a far more difficult situation.

N Africa might have been lost and or the axis effort their would have not siphoned off so much German blood and treasure. Also the Allies could conceivably have been left with only the most costly Northern route to the USSR.

This all came to naught because Japan had no real plan for what to next after 41 and proceeded to disperse it efforts willy-nilly and thus achieved none of the goals it wanted but again it not like that was obvious at the time.

[Poach]

That's pushing it Germany was hardly loosing in 41.

True, I should've explained in more detail what I meant. They weren't losing militarily in '41 but they were well on their way to losing anyway. The lack of preparation for a sustained operation coupled with the onset of the unusually severe Steppe winter were the two main factors in Barbarossa's failure to knock the USSR out of the war.

As such I do believe that the Wermacht could still have turned it around on that front, though once the offensive faltered and the Red Army began serious counter-attacks it was only a matter of time before Berlin was reached.

The slim chance the Germans had of averting disaster in the east and regaining the upper hand was lost completely when they brought the US into the war against them.

I do agree with you about the German perspective though. Using their figures and estimates one can indeed see why they thought it was a safe risk to take. Though with the benefit of hindsight we know it ended what hope they had left of winning.

[Pious Agnost]

The Undeclared War was going to be declared sometime.

But Hitler was an impatient man.

Works for me.