Any Imperial Reforms?

[Titus Maximius Thongus]

Hey all,

Just wondering if there are reforms that turn you're named republican legionares into their imperial counterparts.

i ask this because currently, all of my italian numbered legions seem to be in the early-era, eg Caesar's legionare types, however legions I recruit in N-italy, in Greece and in Africa seem to be imperial legionares, thus having higher stats, lorica segmenta armour and the whole works.

Looks a little odd to have imperial legionares in lorica segmenta fighting alongside Caesar's legionares in their chainmail armour.

[Sator Mortis]

Lorica Hamata (mail) remained very common throughout the Imperial period, it is quite possible that segmentata was never even worn by a majority of the legionaries.

[rory o'kane]

As far as i'm aware, the imperial reforms work just like in vanilla RTW.

[Titus Maximius Thongus]

i think i phrased my point wrong,

my question is, is there any event that changes the named legionares you can recruit in italy into imperial legionares, eg like the ones you can recruit outside of italy such as Primegena and the Macedonia legions, who have higher defence and attack than their italian counterparts.

On a side note, when can you start recruiting Praetorians?

[Ybbon]

i think i phrased my point wrong,

my question is, is there any event that changes the named legionares you can recruit in italy into imperial legionares, eg like the ones you can recruit outside of italy such as Primegena and the Macedonia legions, who have higher defence and attack than their italian counterparts.

On a side note, when can you start recruiting Praetorians?

I know this has been said before so you can search for it, but I just started that - you need a Field Of Mars and highest farm upgrade in Rome, then build the Castra Praetoria (or whatever it's called). I think the bit that catches most out is that you need Latifundia in Rome too - got to build up the physiques of those Praetorians after all, they probably, each and every one of them, have 3 shredded wheat for breakfast!

[rory o'kane]

No, their equipment does not change. The lorica segmentata (though superior to the lorica hamata in many ways) was never universally issued. So it's not totally inaccurate to have legions with various bits of equipment. Equipment was kept in service for a very long time, until it was irreparably damaged.
To access the Praetorians, you have to have built the Castra Praetoria in Rome. I think the highest level of farming is the pre-requisite.

[Sator Mortis]

(though superior to the lorica hamata in many ways)

The Romans never really seemed to think that, seeing as they never equipped the legions guarding their richest provinces with it. Although one could argue endlessly over semantics on which type of armour was better in what way, both types having benefits over the other, neither was truely superior. Let's hope that in RS2 legion stats aren't based solely on what armour type the legionaries happen to wear.

[rory o'kane]

Err, modern re-enactors (who are now being recognised as making an invaluable contribution to archaeology because they provide understanding of the practical uses of ancient arms and armaments) have shown that the lorica segmentata is lighter, and provides better defence against arrows and spear thrusts (no chance of breaking a ring in a mail coat and thus far reduced risk of perforation). It's also a fair bit easier to make, because you don't have to rivet all the things together. It IS superior, but as the Roman Empire wasn't completely centralised, and owing to the Roman tendency to keep equipment in service until it was unusable, meant that chainmail soldiered on. During the chaos of the 3rd Century AD, the army moved towards chainmail because it was somewhat easier to maintain or repair (no brass hinges and the like to replace, just rings).

[Sator Mortis]

Err, modern re-enactors (who are now being recognised as making an invaluable contribution to archaeology because they provide understanding of the practical uses of ancient arms and armaments) have shown that the lorica segmentata is lighter, and provides better defence against arrows and spear thrusts (no chance of breaking a ring in a mail coat and thus far reduced risk of perforation). It's also a fair bit easier to make, because you don't have to rivet all the things together. It IS superior, but as the Roman Empire wasn't completely centralised, and owing to the Roman tendency to keep equipment in service until it was unusable, meant that chainmail soldiered on. During the chaos of the 3rd Century AD, the army moved towards chainmail because it was somewhat easier to maintain or repair (no brass hinges and the like to replace, just rings).

The practical uses, not the amount of protection the armour types offered. The simple reason for that being that modern day replicas are made of spring steel plates, which is very light and arrows just bounce of it, whereas ancient segmentata was made of not particularly high quality iron hammered into shape, which is very heavy and can be perforated by arrows and hand weapons just fine. Modern mail on the other hand is often of a lesser quality than its ancient counterparts, because of the labour that goes into linking tens of thousands of tiny rings properly together. With proper padding underneath, a mail shirt provides excellent protection against arrow strikes because it dissipates the energy over a wider area whereas with plate all the energy is focussed on a single point, although with plate you do probably have a higher chance of the arrow being deflected. Mail does provide less protection against stabs, but is more effective against slashes than segmentata. It's also a mistake to think that a ring breaking decreases protection in any significant way; the rings in a mail shirt are so close together that you can barely see through it, a single ring being damaged or even missing doesn't make much of a difference.

While you are correct that armour was often used for decades until it pretty much fell apart, segmentata was in use for hundreds of years, plenty of time for its use to spread throughout the empire if it was truely superior - but it didn't. It wasn't used in the east at all, except by western units sent there in an emergency, and even in the west it wasn't adopted by all units.

The reason segmentata disappeared is probably because in the early empire armour was made by private companies, whereas in the later empire the state took control over such companies and enforced the standard (which was always hamata) to easier deal with an expanding army, in addition to mail being easier and cheaper to maintain. I have never seen any conclusive evidence on which type was cheaper to produce, segmentata was definitely harder to make but as far as I know it's unknown how labour intensive the process was to the Romans.

Again, we could argue semantics all day, but in the end both armour types provided excellent protection for the time and we should probably just leave it at that. Neither was inherently superior, in terms of protection.

[Titus Maximius Thongus]

k cool, question answered ^.^

[Titus Maximius Thongus]

oh yea, one more thing. My family members all seem to have early general bodyguards despite the reforms, make them look a little out of place besides my armoured generals.
Is there any event in the game that changes early bodyguards to armoured ones?