Rebel's in Southern Spain

[The Turk]

I was just wondering if the Dominion of the Sword team could implement a system which would make all the 'rebel' cities (not all but most) join the Almoravid/Almohad dominions for protection against the Christian armies and this could be an option as it would decrease your money but spread Islam and happiness across your domain. This itself is very historical and I would strongly urge the Dominion of the Sword team to implement it.

[Basil 11]

I was just wondering if the Dominion of the Sword team could implement a system which would make all the 'rebel' cities (not all but most) join the Almoravid/Almohad dominions for protection against the Christian armies and this could be an option as it would decrease your money but spread Islam and happiness across your domain. This itself is very historical and I would strongly urge the Dominion of the Sword team to implement it.

A good idea, but why would this spread 'Islam and happiness across your domain'?
If anything, I would have thought that the Almorivad / Almohad conquests, whilst uniting the Islamic states in Spain, would've caused unrest and tension between the conquerers and locals due to differences in ethnicities and political alleigance etc.

[Walkman810i]

Exactly my thoughts Basil.

[Goodfella]

spread Islam and happiness across your domain.

lol.

[Walkman810i]

lol.

Yeah the most funniest thing I've ever heard in my whole life

[Goodfella]

Yeah the most funniest thing I've ever heard in my whole life

Its not even that funny... but it is
I found myself thinking, am i reading this correcly? lol.

[sumskilz]

The muluk al-tawa'if (rulers of the Muslim Spanish states) would not have invited Yusuf ibn Tashfin except that they were desperate after the fall of Toledo. They tried to institute stipulations in their agreement with him that required that he would return to Africa, which he did temporarily after defeating Alfonso VI. When he did unite Muslim Spain under his rule it was not without resistance. Many of the muluk al-tawa'if were in no position to resist him, but that doesn't mean they were happy about it. There would have been cultural conflict with the general populace as well; the Almoravids were ascetics who had little use for Andulusian art and poetry.

EDIT: I'm not quite sure what this means in game terms, except that I don't think it should increase happiness, especially considering the sizable minorities of Christians and Jews who would have had more in common with their previous Andalusian rulers than with the Almoravids.

[Basil 11]

The muluk al-tawa'if (rulers of the Muslim Spanish states) would not have invited Yusuf ibn Tashfin except that they were desperate after the fall of Toledo. They tried to institute stipulations in their agreement with him that required that he would return to Africa, which he did temporarily after defeating Alfonso VI. When he did unite Muslim Spain under his rule it was not without resistance. Many of the muluk al-tawa'if were in no position to resist him, but that doesn't mean they were happy about it. There would have been cultural conflict with the general populace as well; the Almoravids were ascetics who had little use for Andulusian art and poetry.

This is as I thought;
Thanks for the historical info, sumskilz.

[The Turk]

[COLOR=#6d6155][FONT=Verdana]
EDIT: I'm not quite sure what this means in game terms, except that I don't think it should increase happiness, especially considering the sizable minorities of Christians and Jews who would have had more in common with their previous Andalusian rulers than with the Almoravids.

Good point, but I still think there should be another bonus, to incite the player to accept this deal, maybe the spread of Islam and the suppression of the Christian and Jews in the area, which is also accurate.

[Achilla]

... but spread Islam and happiness across your domain. This itself is very historical

Lol! Away with you, infidel!

More seriously, though ... how is that historical? Moreover, why would all of them gladly accept anyone's 'protection' (protection has a price, no?), especially the Almoravid one? Can you provide some historical background and research for that?

Until that happens, I take your suggestion more as a personal wish or 'preference', which doesn't have much to do with history and objectivism at all.

Plus, this mod isn't an exact recreation of history as 'in year 1234 happens this and that no matter what you do', so many historically valid points wouldn't actually make much sense in the actual gameplay (because the entire world reacts to what you do and what others factions do, you can't dictate in any sensible way an event such as 'fall of Constantinople' in 1453, if by that year in the actual game the Turkish faction has been completely destroyed by the Byzantines for instance ... so if for any reason those 'rebel' provinces will seek protection by Muslims, it will be because in that particular game they will be under heavy pressure from Christian factions, not because it historically happened ...).

[Hax]

Keep Islam's connection to the overall happiness people out of this forum, please.

[Walkman810i]

Keep Islam's connection to the overall happiness people out of this forum, please.

They started it... *points finger at Goodfella and The Turk*

Just kidding

[Goodfella]

xD

[Space_Ed]

Yeah lets avoid this talk please.

[Walkman810i]

Yeah lets avoid this talk please.

I am just curious what was the point of bringing this topic back to life. We obviously weren't serious.

Ok, obviously all of you took this in a wrong direction

The Turk, don't take us wrong too. I am sorry that it turned out like that. In my opinion DotS team will represent Southern Spain as best as they can (like everything in Dots ) I have no doubt about that.

[Goodfella]

lol.

[The Turk]

Ok, obviously all of you took this in a wrong direction, first off just to clarify, I'm not Muslim, I am Catholic ok (but that is besides the point). Second, what I meant by it would increase happiness if the Almohads excepted the request to take in all the muslim city-states within southern spain, then it would increase the happiness of these states as well, since they were being picked off one by one by the Spainsh reconquista. And again, I get my sources from a wide range, just look at wikipedia for Almohads or Almoravids and also there is a youtube clip(s) on Muslim Spain which is quite intresting which will explain this to you in greater detail.

[The Turk]

When you say they wanted to expel heresy from North Africa don't you mean Southern Spain, because although the Taifa Kingdoms were Muslims they drank wine, made sculptures of human beings, and broke other strict Muslim laws. So my question is are you going to make the Almoravid's invade Southern Spain taking one taifa kingdom one by one OR are you going to allow all the Muslim Taifa Kingdoms flip to them around the beginning of the game? And I would say that the Taifa Kingdoms asked the Almoravid's to come in and protect them as mercenaries from the preying Christian armies, because although the Taifa kingdoms were extremely advanced in Science, technology and philosophy the one thing they lacked was a good army (due to the deviated resources to the sciences).

[sumskilz]

When you say they wanted to expel heresy from North Africa don't you mean Southern Spain, because although the Taifa Kingdoms were Muslims they drank wine, made sculptures of human beings, and broke other strict Muslim laws.

I was referring to heresy in North Africa. There was a tendency among many Berber groups toward religious practices that blended Islam with pre-Islamic indigenous beliefs. Many of these practices continue to this day, though some are considered forms of Sufism, like the healing rituals of the Gnawa. According to Ibn Khaldun, the Berbers tended toward rebellion and heresy. You are correct however that the lax religiosity of the taifa kings gave Yusuf ibn Tashfin moral/religious justification for deposing them.

So my question is are you going to make the Almoravid's invade Southern Spain taking one taifa kingdom one by one OR are you going to allow all the Muslim Taifa Kingdoms flip to them around the beginning of the game?

It would make more sense in game terms for the Almoravid player to have to take the taifa one by one. Most of the taifa kings were in no position to mount an effective resistance; even so it still took ibn Tashfin a few years to completely consolidate his power in Iberia. Ibn Tashfin was careful to consult with Muslim jurists before taking action, several Fatwas were delivered in support of his conquest of Andalusia, but it was a conquest nonetheless. According to al-Maqqari, when one of ibn Tashfin's generals asked him about how the Andalusians should be dealt with, his response was "Order them to accompany thee to the enemy’s country; if they obey, well and good; if they refuse, lay siege to their cities, attack them one after the other, and destroy them without mercy."

[The Turk]

I was referring to heresy in North Africa. There was a tendency among many Berber groups toward religious practices that blended Islam with pre-Islamic indigenous beliefs. Many of these practices continue to this day, though some are considered forms of Sufism, like the healing rituals of the Gnawa. According to Ibn Khaldun, the Berbers tended toward rebellion and heresy. You are correct however that the lax religiosity of the taifa kings gave Yusuf ibn Tashfin moral/religious justification for deposing them.
It would make more sense in game terms for the Almoravid player to have to take the taifa one by one. Most of the taifa kings were in no position to mount an effective resistance; even so it still took ibn Tashfin a few years to completely consolidate his power in Iberia. Ibn Tashfin was careful to consult with Muslim jurists before taking action, several Fatwas were delivered in support of his conquest of Andalusia, but it was a conquest nonetheless. According to al-Maqqari, when one of ibn Tashfin's generals asked him about how the Andalusians should be dealt with, his response was "Order them to accompany thee to the enemy’s country; if they obey, well and good; if they refuse, lay siege to their cities, attack them one after the other, and destroy them without mercy."

Oh ok, sounds good, but don't you think there should be some sort of penalty, for wealth lose or happiness lose within the newly assimilated/conquered Taifa kingdoms to represent the destruction and prohibition of culture which was practiced?