Punic Power Testing

[apple]

Carthage is our next non bug campaign target so get your hands on Hannibal's armies and kick some Roman's.

[Benz282]

Played 12-15 turns (forget exactly how many...around there though).

Here's what I found + updates on important battles:

Errors:
1 - Libyan Light Infantry have a bad unit card for the Free Peoples/Rebels.
2 - Carthaginian "Towered Forest Elephants" have a bad unit card.
3 - Bruttian Spearmen have a bad unit card when in the Merc Pool, but once recruited, their unit card corrects.
4 - Libyan Chariots have a bad unit card in the Merc Pool.
5 - A "General Nero" has a lot of spaces before his name (so it looks like "General Nero" in game).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Battle of the River Trebia:
- A pretty straightforward battle, even on the Carthaginian modfolder and H/H.
My Deployment:
---- Left Flank Cavalry: Elephants in front, with Iberian Cavalry behind them and Hannibal in the back.
---- Left Flank Infantry: The Marines, Libyan Spearmen, and Iberian Scutarii.
---- Middle: Libyan Light Infantry.
---- Right Flank Infantry: Barbarian Spearmen, Axemen, and Swordsmen.
---- Right Flank Cavalry: Numidian Cavalry.
---------Formation: The infantry line formed a shallow "U" with the Libyan Lights at the vertex. The cavalry on both sides were parallel to the Libyan Light Infantry line.
---------Battle: The Romans sent their cavalry straight into the middle of the infantry line. They were destroyed, but allowed the Roman infantry to advance unmolested. My Numidians harassed the right flank, while the Iberian Cavalry maneuvered behind the battle line. Once the melee began, both cavalry flanks closed in. The Roman right routed quickly (my left), while their left held firm. The elephants routed each Roman unit individually, creeping first towards the Roman middle, then their left, until all the Roman units were routed.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pretty shot

After Trebia, I had Hannibal take the undefended Cannae to be in his beloved Apulia. From there, he took Taras (in a night assault with the help of a spy ), followed by everything south of Capua (not all at once). The Romans pursued Hannibal down into the southern part of Italy (but did not engage him), leaving the north open for attack from the army at Genua (Genoa? eh, Liguria). That army took Arretium after Taras fell, then Rome. All the while, the Roman armies were running up and down the peninsula trying to catch either Hannibal or the northern army in the field, which they never succeeded at doing.

Eventually, all of Italy fell, and only Capua was left. Reinforcements from Africa arrived and set to do battle with the garrison. Instead of allowing the city to be taken like so many others before it, the Romans banded together and threw everything they had in Italy against the new army. And boy was it a tough - but fun - battle.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yes, I lost. The first army was easy to take out, but then the second army arrived on the field and pushed my infantry line to the brink of collapse. Meanwhile, my elephants were ambushed by some Velites and routed. After that, it was pretty much over, since the elephants were so vital to winning the battle due to their intimidation alone. My men fought tooth-and-nail to win, and despite their inevitability of defeat, they managed to push through the Roman line and kill the Roman FL just before routing...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The battle for Capua was one of, if not, the greatest battle I have ever fought in RTW. A lot hung in the balance, and even though it was a defeat, it was still very satisfying. I had not lost due to being caught off-guard on the campaign map and having been forced to fight a battle with less-than-ideal troops, I lost the battle because the Romans outnumbered me and outmaneuvered my men. Even still, the battle had its ups and downs; at some moments it seemed like my men were about to falter, while at others, there seemed to be hope that I would survive. Pushing through to the FL and managing to kill him was incredibly epic and for sure ranks at the top of my "favorite RTW moments" list.

In addition, the whole "Battle for Italy" was incredibly well done on your part. I really felt like Hannibal for a long time (until the war turned in my favor after Rome was taken). Yes, you have one of the greatest men of history leading your men, but that does not mean it's an easy ride straight through the gates of Rome. It's tough, and had I not been able to see everything (and hence, gone for Arretium instead of Cannae after Trebia), it would have been even harder. You don't have unlimited men, and you can't get more at the start. You have to make some very hard decisions, "Should I go try to take another city and risk getting caught, or should I stay here and strengthen my position, even though that will allow the Romans to recruit more men?". I'm very impressed. I admit, I very much admire Hannibal (more so than any Roman leader), so conquering Italy has been very fun for me.

The only thing I would suggest for the campaign would be to add more Roman ships in the Mediterranean. The whole reason Hannibal was forced to march over the Alps was because of Roman naval superiority, and the fact that I manged to destroy all Roman vessels within the matter of a few turns after Trebia is laughable. A stronger Roman navy would be more historical in my opinion, and would also offer a greater challenge to the player; even though the first reinforcements I landed in Italy were at Capua, I could have sent them far earlier - turn 5 or so.

(Granted, I'm no historian, but it is my understanding that at the start of the Second Punic War, the Romans had an advantage over the Carthaginians in naval terms).

This is where I am now:

[tone]

Thanks, that's a really helpful bit of input.
For the Roman mod foldered campaign we've restructured Hannibal's army to make it more historical (removed elephants for a start as these didn't appear after Trebia - and the first battle is really supposed to be like Lake Trasimene).

If you save your current campaign, I'll change this and upload for you - it'd be interesting to see how things compare with a different lineup - probably even more of a challenge without the elephants. We probably ought to remove the availability of the Sacred Band infantry too from this stage in the campaign, but we can discuss this.

I'm aware of those unit card issues and will try and get them done asap.

[tone]

There's a nice summary of the naval action here: http://www.gmtgames.com/c3i/1_12_Quinquereme.pdf

I've strenthened Rome's starting fleet and added a second under the command of Tiberius Sempronius Longus (a historical character) near Lilybaeum.

Fleet 1: 2 biremes, 2 triremes
Fleet 2: 2 biremes, 1 trireme, 1 quinquireme

Also added unit cards for Libyan light infantry for all factions (Leif has just sent me the new skins)


Uploaded the changes.

[malibu.stacey]

Very interesting read, thanks for the link, tone!

[Beast Within]

it seemed like that was very simple for carthage there

[Benz282]

it seemed like that was very simple for carthage there

It was. I'm not sure how it will play out without elephants though - they really were key to breaking the Roman line in the battles, as well as opening the gates. I've got to do some schoolwork, but I'll try to get a few turns in tonight with the new changes. Halo 3: ODST comes out tomorrow though, so this might be the last time I test for a day or two...

EDIT: Hm...so Naked Fanatics instead of Elephants...it can work...

By the way, the Celtic Noble Cavalry and Naked Fanatics have bad unit cards, if you weren't aware.

[tone]

It'll be interesting to see how the changes play out

[apple]

Same applies for me mate.
(ps what's your xbox live name?)
Sgt. Johnson awaits my comand.

[Benz282]

That was an...interesting battle...I just played Trebia without the Elephants. Somehow, I did markedly better without them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If my memory serves correct, you increased the quality of the troops for Hannibal by quite a bit.

Anyways, I took all heavy spearmen (Late Libyans, Celtiberian Spearmen, etc) and had them form a solid center (defense mode on). I then placed the Light Gaulic (sp?) Swordsmen to their left, with the Scutarii and Caetrati Infantry on the right. I formed all the cavalry on my left wing and had the Naked Fanatics guarding the right...all hiding in the grass .

The battle commenced and the Romans immediately took advantage of my open right and sent all their cavalry (except for the general) back all the way around my line, completely encircling the Fanatics. While the main body of my army advanced, the Fanatics stood against the Equites and managed to hold their ground against 2 units attacking from opposite sides. Then I sent the Caetrati to assist the Fanatics, and together they managed to push the cavalry off. Meanwhile, the other two Roman cavalry units were busy crossing to my middle in order to attack my skirmishers, who were wreaking havoc on the Roman line. As the infantry lines collided, the Romans sent their general to break the Fanatics on the right, and brought along a Polybian Cohort. It was probably at this point that the Roman cavalry behind my lines first charged into my skirmishers+slingers (wasn't paying attention to them at the time).

Since my line was longer than the Romans, I was able to wheel the Light Swordsmen on the left around the battle line and attack the Romans from behind. Thanks to their javelins and warcries, they managed to do quite a bit of damage despite their lack of armor. At the same time, my cavalry was dealing with a lone Cohort that was preventing me from getting behind their lines.

Then the Fanatics killed the Legatus . The unit that was bogging down my cavalry routed, as did the Roman cavalry units that were harassing my skirmishers. With the aid of my skirmishers and cavalry, the Roman line began to disintegrate; first on my left, and then all the way down. In the end, the only Roman unit still standing was the one that had aided the Legatus against the Fanatics. I was very impressed with their performance (the Fanatics and Caetrati). They were the first ones to enter the fight and were the last ones to leave. I'd give them all medals if I could.

Anyways, I was impressed by the battle statistics: the Balearic Slingers and Numidian Cavalry had the highest kill-counts. Imagine that!

Overall, the losses suffered were minor, and nothing I can't fix with the units stationed in reserve. In Italy, I think I will have to go down the coast one city at a time instead of my blitz last campaign, so I just may attack Arretium next...No, I'll probably go for Rome itself. If I'm going to have to settle in for a siege, it might as well be for the most important city to the enemy.

My goal on the home-front is to build a navy and hold on to the territories I already have. I'm not so much concerned with getting my income stable this time around, since I will need to send reinforcements for Hannibal if I want to take Italy (which has more money to be gained from looting than can be from building farms in Africa). In order to do that, I need to first deal with the navy.

(PS, apple: My gamertag is "HF Skivvies". Tomorrow my friend is bringing his copy over and we're probably going to go through the campaign, but Wednesday I should be doing Firefight.)

[tone]

Interesting. We might have to reduce the experience level on those units, depending on how you do in the rest of your campaign.

[tone]

unit cards sorted for:
Naked fanatics (carthage)
Celtic nobles (carthage)
Libyan chariot

added Carthage skin for elephant archer

[Benz282]

Turn 3 using the same save as the last Trebia I posted.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Built 8 Sacred Bands and 1 Towered Elephant in Carthage first turn, then used those to seize Caralis. Besieged Arretium using the garrison from Genoa. Besieged Roma using Hannibal's army. When the legion at Ariminum showed up behind Hannibal, the garrison of Roma marched out to fight. After a bloody battle, both Roman armies were defeated and Hannibal marched into the streets of Rome unchallenged (this battle was harder than Trebia, mainly due to being surrounded).

Currently, the Romans have 3 armies aboard ships. Their settlements, on the other hand, are rather weakly defended - even in Italy. Only Arretium and Capua have decently sized garrisons.

EDIT: (The battle)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[apple]

Thanks.

People we really need you to post. It just seems like we have one guy that take this serious for the moment and that is Benz.
I know that other factions are tempting but we really need you to focus on one of them and that is Carthage as of now.
You are here to test the things that we want not the faction that has the coolest units.

(there is some exemptions like helping to solve bug that a team member requested help on etc, but your should focus be Carthage)

[Brusilov]

OK, I started a Carthage campaign yesterday but didn't get very far with it. I will try and continue it tomorrow (after the Singaporian F1 GP, of course)......

[Maximus Macro]

just started one to,but after cannae battle i had to go so didn't get far.
first thing why doesn't Carthago have the capital income bonus cause money is reallly tight?

[Philip_II]

On it. Battles went well. Forgot to fight at Cannae so my bad. Curious how a campaign where people didn't attack would look like. Economy is fine with me. Just focus on money for the first five or so turns. Looking to take all of my half of Africa before attacking further into Italy and Spain.

[tone]

Could we have some comments on the first battle from Carthage's perspective please?
Way too easy?

I suspect that we need to remove Carthage's elite barracks too like we've done with other mod foldered campaigns.

[torzsoktamas]

Well the firts battle is quite easy if you siege Arretium in order to not let enemy reinforcements.IF the player uses his cavalry's well, than he can win loosing not more than 10-12% of his army.Thats on medium difficulty.On hard,...well its harder, but the same thing....I mean that having 18-20% casualty still means an easy victory.

But this dosen't means that you have to make it harder.Carthage's campaign is hard enough:The romans spawn quite some armies that are very poverfull due to their mutch better infantry.There is just a matter of time that the Iberians will attack you.The economy is quite weak as I stated earlyer.

[Benz282]

Could we have some comments on the first battle from Carthage's perspective please?
Way too easy?

I suspect that we need to remove Carthage's elite barracks too like we've done with other mod foldered campaigns.

Way too easy? Perhaps. Trebia was not at all a "nail-biter" for me; just a matter of eating the casualties my infantry had to take, while preparing a flanking maneuver.

Maybe remove the elite barracks, if for no other reason than giving the player a chance to upgrade his army at some point. Right now, you can pump out the very best armies you'll ever have available to you, so the "pride" of recruiting Sacred Bands just isn't there. Then again, I'm not sure what units will be available with a step or two lower barracks. Considering the Romans are able to pump so many troops that have such high stats, removing our ability to make "decent" troops in comparison to them may be a death-sentence (specifically, the Triarii with 43 defense, against the Sacred Band of Baal's 35). Though so long as we retain the ability to recruit Early Libyan Spearmen, I think it would be fine (under the condition that the player could upgrade the barracks right off the bat and get access to Late Libyans...which is perhaps more historical; I assume the Late Libyans are based off the fact that the Libyan troops with Hannibal got first-pick of former "Roman" equipment after his battles in Italy, so giving the Carthaginians the ability to recruit them before Trebia doesn't make much sense, if that assumption is correct).

EDIT: Also, I forgot to post yesterday that the Libyan Chariots still lack their picture for the unit card once you open it up (the big one).