how did the spanish really win

[Moorish guy]

During the spanish conquest oh the Aztecs and the Mayas did the spanish use of modern the weaponry the sole reason they won sure armor and a gun are an excellent combination but there not gonna save you form 30000 fanatic aztec warriors I think the real way the spanish were victories were the thousands of other tribes that the inca and aztecs had conquered providing the spanish with hundreds of mercenary troops which I think is the main cause of there victory do you agree or disagree discuss.

[Solid Snake]

Mmm first, Aztecs and Incas never met, never, not even Mayans met them. Im mexican so Im quite familiar with this obscure part of history, I resent the word fanatic, they were soldiers, who tought that they would get a better life if they died in the field of battle, but that wasnt the purpose, the purpose was always to destroy the enemy.
The only reason we "lost" to the Spanish was because our Uey Tlatoani (emperor) of the Mexicas (Aztec is a innappropiate term) was a coward who tought that Cortez was Quetzalcoatl (a major God) reborn. But before that the Mexicas didnt ahve many friends cause they had conquered most of Mexico (except the north, Michihuacan, Texcala and nobody cared for the south) so all of those conquered tribes saw Cortez as a liberator of the Mexica oppression and so they gladly joined him. The coalition of tribes against us, the doubts of Motecuzoma and the diseases the spanish brought all helped in our defeat.

[Moorish guy]

Mmm first, Aztecs and Incas never met, never, not even Mayans met them. Im mexican so Im quite familiar with this obscure part of history, I resent the word fanatic, they were soldiers, who tought that they would get a better life if they died in the field of battle, but that wasnt the purpose, the purpose was always to destroy the enemy.
The only reason we "lost" to the Spanish was because our Uey Tlatoani (emperor) of the Mexicas (Aztec is a innappropiate term) was a coward who tought that Cortez was Quetzalcoatl (a major God) reborn. But before that the Mexicas didnt ahve many friends cause they had conquered most of Mexico (except the north, Michihuacan, Texcala and nobody cared for the south) so all of those conquered tribes saw Cortez as a liberator of the Mexica oppression and so they gladly joined him. The coalition of tribes against us, the doubts of Motecuzoma and the diseases the spanish brought all helped in our defeat.

thats what I mean the aztecs made alot of enemies. and I forgot about disease that was also one of the biggest thins that killed of the central americans.

[Bwaho]

They allied with tribes that resented the aztecs... Of course the Spanish also had cannons, muskets, cavalry, ships and smallpox to help tip the balance in their favor.


I personally think that this whole event is one of the most fascinating parts of history. Two civilizations that have developed separately over thousands of years go to war with each other... truly a clash of civilizations. I just think it's really really interesting.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

I think they won by sending messages to the tribes that included periods and capitalization.

[Dust be in Thy Mouth, Infidel!]

I think disease killed off a lot of the Mexicans. Their immune systems wouldn't have been used to European illnesses.

[Solid Snake]

But the indecision of the Mexica emperor was capital, we could have destroyed the spanish on the mountains pass and such but he was too much of a coward to order an attack

[cenkiss]

Aztecs had lots of enemies,spain used that.
Aztecs did not have immunity for the diseases spanish brought from europe.Many of them died horribly from things we would not even care if we had.Spain used that.
Aztecs thought spanish were their gods.Spain used that.
Spain had technology,firearms,horses.Spain used that.

[Solid Snake]

The population as a whole did not think they were gods, perhaps emisaries or messengers but upon hearing news of some tribes who did fought them in the way to Tenochtitlan they knew they could be killed and therefore they must be mortals.
Motecuzoma was the only one fool enough to buy the whole story.
Oh I forgot about it the Spanish had an india woman in their ranks, who served as spy, translator and advisor in strategy, she was also a key piece in the downfall of our nation, she has been branded as a traitor since then, and I will not utter her name here

[Bwaho]

The population as a whole did not think they were gods

and you know this how?

Oh I forgot about it the Spanish had an india woman in their ranks, who served as spy, translator and advisor in strategy, she was also a key piece in the downfall of our nation

in your nation?

Why?Was she a volunteer or forced?

she was Cortez's lover

[cenkiss]

Why?Was she a volunteer or forced?

[Solid Snake]

Im Mexican, say whatever u want about the mixture of races and blood but some of us still feel like Aztecs as you are determined to call us, we still feel like those temples are our temples and that the ancient Gods were more our Gods than the God the spanish imposed of us, about your earlier question, the population maybe thought they were Gods early in the game, but when the spanish army entered Tenochtitlan it was clear they were not Gods, how could a God be amazed of an earthly city? how could a God be so dirty? XD The emperor bullied the people into serving the spanish but the population got tired of it and rioted, the emperor died of a stone throw.
And cenkiss, that woman was a gift to the spanish to convince them of not coming to Tenoctitlan (Gods know the logic in that) but she actively joined them, she was one of the first to be baptized and such she volunteered into servitude, her motives remain unknown


She tought that Cortez loved her, they did had a son but he threw her away after the Conquest, Ihtink they were treated as a couple but Cortez wasnt too happy with that woman proclaiming it was his woman as a wife of sorts

[Domen123]

There are three major facts:

- the Spanish were almost completely defeated in 1520 after "Noche Triste" (this was only the beginning of their defeats)
- the Spanish managed to recover after their defeat in 1520 only thanks to their Indian allies + huge Spanish reinforcements
- the Spanish managed to finally conquer Tenochtitlan in 1521 thanks to numerical superiority (they had got ca. 150,000 warriors from their numerous Indian allies)

Aztec forces achieved several great victories over the Spaniards. According to Juan Cano, casualties of forces of Cortez and his allies since the incorporation of forces of Narvaez to the Cortez's army on 08.07.1520 until the escape of remnants of Spanish army to the state of Tlaxcalla (this retreat beginned with famous Noche Triste followed by the bloody battle of Otompan) were around 9170 killed (this includes 8 thousands of Tlaxcaltecs and 1170 Spaniards) and 80 horses killed. Out of these 1170 killed Spaniards, around 270 were to be killed in Tenochtitlan (to this we must add at least 2,000 Tlaxcaltecs who lost their lives there) and 72 in Toxtepec in the coastal region, where Spanish garrison suffered another painful defeat. Many were also killed during the battle of Otompan. Apart from huge men losses, entire artillery was lost, almost all arquebuses and crossbows, entire supplies of gunpowder, the whole chancellery, entire personal property of vast majority of all soldiers (others managed to save only small parts), majority of all loot.

Before this series of defeats Cortez was leading an army of 1300 Spaniards (according to Diaz del Castillo) to rescue the besieged Tenochtitlan. To this we must add the crew of Tenochtitlan under command of Pedro de Narvaez, garrison of Vera Cruz and garrisons left in other cities. After the defeat all Cortez's forces were repulsed by Aztecs literally everywhere from their lands and remnants of Cortez's army which managed to survive numbered no more than 425 Spaniards including just 20 cavalrymen, 12 crossbowmen and 7 arquebusers (according to Vazquez de Tapia).

Even out of those survivors, major part was seriously wounded or sick (Cortez himself suffered several wounds).

Moreover - this handful of Spaniards (including Cortez) managed to survive practically only thanks to the happy (for Spaniards of course) coincidence. Namely - during the battle of Otompan Spaniards suffered huge casualties and hardly survived, de facto they managed to survive only thanks to the fact that Mexican* (Aztec) commander was KIA in the most critical moment of the battle, after which various Aztec units slowly started to break up from the battlefield and go back to their home towns, taking captured Spanish loot with them but leaving bodies of their fallen companions.

Even after this lucky escape Spaniards wouldn't have survived and recovered if not huge help of allied Tlaxcaltecs.

Source:

Excellent book by Ryszard Tomicki, "Tenochtitlan 1521" (230 pages) from the "Historyczne Bitwy" ("Historical Battles") series.

-----------------------------------

*Tomicki writes about Mexicans, not Aztecs, because these people usually called themselves Mexicans. Only in legends they came from the legendary land called Aztlan (that's how the name Aztecs was born). For example Indian chronicler Chimalpahin Cuauhtlehuanitzin wrote:

"In quexquichcauh maniz cemanahuatl ayc pollihuiz yn itenyo yn itauhca in Mexico Tenochtitlan"

"As long as the world will exist the fame and the glory of Mexico-Tenochtitlan will not dissapear."

It is characteristic that Chimalpahin was the descendant of inhabitants of the city of Amaquemecan - one of the Indian cities which were subjects of Tenochtitlan and allies of Cortez during the war against the so called Aztec Empire.

He is the author of "Codex Chimalpahin" written in nahuatl language in early 17th century.

--------------------------------------

If it comes to the siege of Tenochtitlan in 1521, it should be noted that Mexican forces lost that battle mainly because of huge numerical superiority of Cortez's forces. Apart from his Spaniards, Cortez also had got around 150,000 reinforcements from his allies in the culminating point of the battle. There was huge anti-Aztec coalition.

Even Tetzcoco - former part of the Aztec Confederation - joined Spanish forces later. Ixtlilxochitl - great notable from Tetzcoco - was the second after Cortez most important commander of the allies and conqueror of Tenochtitlan.

The "golden age" of Indian Tetzcoco - by the way - took place after 1521 and before the early 17th century (when European diseases and increasing number of colonists finally devastated the old Indian populaton of Mexico). So it is completely not true that Cortez destroyed Indian civilization in Mexico. He only destroyed Tenochtitlan.

Indian cities which were Cortez's faithful allies were not destroyed, and Indian civilization in these cities was still existing for around 100 years.

They were only subordinated to the Spanish rule (just like before 1521 they were subordinated to the Aztec rule).

The final reasons why these cities lost their Indian culture and population were post-Cortez persecutions, diseases and massive numbers of European colonists.

Cortez himself was not persecuting Indians, moreover - he loved Indian culture, he was surrounding himself with Indian girls, he considered himself and behaved like a new Aztec emperor. Cortez was upset that Spanish colonization ruined his plans of becoming an absolute ruler of his own "Indian empire" - instead he had to give the land he conquered to Spain.

Today there is a monument of brave defender of Tenochtitlan - Cuahtemoc - in "La Ciudad del Mexico Tenochtitlan":

[gaius valerius]

Im Mexican, say whatever u want about the mixture of races and blood but some of us still feel like Aztecs as you are determined to call us

I wonder to... how do you know you are of Aztec lineage? About 90% of the original populace of Latin America got whiped out after the colonisation (mainly disease), of course with regional variations, still, how can you be so sure you are "Aztec". Furthermore the Aztecs were only a small portion of the empire, for they ruled various other city-states and the only true Aztecs there was the nobility which through a system of noble intermarriage was a major binding factor. You could very well descent from the Tlaxcalans (as said above).

Don't want to burst your bubble, but how can you tell for sure?

[Domen123]

PS:

Tomicki in his book also debunks the myth that Motecuhzoma considered Cortez as some kind of god - this is not true, according to Tomicki.

Majority of normal Aztecs also didn't consider Spanish as gods. They were rather enlightened people, more enlightened than average European peasants of that time.

To summ up - Aztecs put up heavy resistance to the Spanish after Noche Triste, but lost because all subjects rebelled against them and all allies abandoned them (even Tetzcoco - part of the Aztec Confederation - betrayed Tenochtitlan and joined Spanish forces, Tenochtitlan left completely alone fighting against the whole rest of Mexico).

Of course it was their own fault that nobody liked them - we all know what were the Aztecs doing with other Indians inside their temples...

[Solid Snake]

At last someone comes in my aid!! Dont you agree Domen that if Cuauhtemoc was named Uey Tlatoani (emperor) after Ahuitzotl there would have been a whole different story regarding the Spaniards espedition??
I actually recall some text stating Cortez was angry because he had to destroy Tenochtitlan, he wanted to be like the new emperor in that wonderful city.

I think there was a book around stating that Motecuzoma and Cortez were.... ehem lovers and that Tenochtitlan was kinda like a gift from Motecuzoma to Cortez, I highly doubt it tough

[Ulyaoth]

At last someone comes in my aid!! Dont you agree Domen that if Cuauhtemoc was named Uey Tlatoani (emperor) after Ahuitzotl there would have been a whole different story regarding the Spaniards espedition??
I actually recall some text stating Cortez was angry because he had to destroy Tenochtitlan, he wanted to be like the new emperor in that wonderful city.

I think there was a book around stating that Motecuzoma and Cortez were.... ehem lovers and that Tenochtitlan was kinda like a gift from Motecuzoma to Cortez, I highly doubt it tough

Are you taught this stuff in Mexican schools because I don't get the impression from most Mexicans I've met they have any idea about their history before the spanish, or know the native language, do you know it or just a few phrases and words?

But anyway, you act like they would have been left alone. The Aztecs were doomed as any other American civilization/tribe, they could not have lasted against European invasions. Even if they repelled Cortez, a new army would have been sent.

[Domen123]

Small correction - according to Tomicki Motecuhzoma at the beginning didn't believe that Cortez is a god, he wanted to get to know who he is. But there was a strong anti-Motecuhzoma political group in Tenochtitlan (he had many enemies among aristocracy and learned people, mainly because of his methods of rule), and some of Motecuhzoma's priests and advisers were involved in this conspiracy against him - they purposely told him that Cortez is Quetzalcoatl, because they wanted to dethrone him, and this invasion was a very good occasion to do it - they finally managed to convince Motecuhzoma that Cortez was some kind of god. But Motecuhzoma rather considered Charles V Habsburg (about whom he was told, also by the Spanish) as Quetzalcoatl, and he considered Cortez as only Quetzalcoatl's servant and as human.

If it comes to Aztecs allegedly fearing of horses - it seems that this fear was quickly overcome, because yet during the first battles they learned how to use their long spears (acatl) against Spanish cavalry. Cortez personally saw how efficient these spears can be against cavalry, and that's why he used these spears (captured ones) during his battle against Spanish expedition under command of Narvaez (which was sent from Hispaniola to defeat Cortez). Spanish soldiers were also commonly using captured Aztec armours, because they found these armours very resistant (at least against Aztec weapons) and much lighter than their own iron armours.

They were also more comfortable than Spanish iron armours when it was very hot.

[Solid Snake]

Ah, you see, that I did not know, I thought that his main interest was to see the white men the mayans were bragging about, and yet he kept sending envoys with treasure to try to convince Cortez of not going. I also recall the conspiration starting after Cortez arrival at Tenochtitlan.
And he was a god damn tyrant, I read that his servants had to wear like..... mmmm really bad quality clothes in front of him and had to kiss the ground three times when they met him saying at each time :"Lord" "My Lord" "My Great Lord"
I think the only one exempt of that was his brother Cuitlahuac

[Bwaho]

Im Mexican, say whatever u want about the mixture of races and blood but some of us still feel like Aztecs as you are determined to call us

right, but how do you know for sure if your ancestors were aztecs? you could just as easily have tlaxcala ancestors. Maybe they would think of you as a traitor for voicing your support for their sworn enemy the aztecs.