Chariots and cavalry in ancient times

[Parzival2211]

I'm not sure where to pop this question. I tried the "Living History Section" of TWC, but that one is as alive as Julius Caesar himself (last post Jan 2007).

I read that cavalry kind of replaced chariots in ancient warfare because of its greater agility etc..

In RTW, chariots however are the ultimate weapon against cavalry. ??? Is there any historical truth to it?

[Genius of the Restoration]

Try the Vestigia Vetustatis forum

[The Noble Lord]

They were good, but with the advent of light and archer cavalry the chariots were just too slow and cumbersome to respond. So, over time they were taken out of service.

[Lucius Gellius Publicola]

They were good, but with the advent of light and archer cavalry the chariots were just too slow and cumbersome to respond. So, over time they were taken out of service.

Does anybody knows when exactly they were taken out of service?

[Xellos_Moon]

Does anybody knows when exactly they were taken out of service?

im not sure but they just gradually got replaced over the years and so on until everyone forgot lol

[Hopit]

Does anybody knows when exactly they were taken out of service?

it was hard and took long to train crew and horses (and expensive to make chariots) and it was easier to use only horses

[Hopit]

chariots: ancient tanks, cavalry: guys on mopeds whit RPG's

[MortenJessen]

chariots: ancient tanks, cavalry: guys on mopeds whit RPG's

Hi all.
And elephants are hells angels on harleys, armed with Milan systems and delta darts.
No, seriously (difficult not to laugh at the above quote though), the Gauls and the Britons used chariots with great effect in battle, and the Egypt chariots armed with archers was one of the most formiddable sights, exept elephants, on a battlefield. Their, both the british, gaulish and egyptian, chariots was an almost perfect weapon or terror and destruction. It took Ceasar two attemts, and huge cassualties, to break both the gauls and the british chariot formations. But the egyptian chariot archers was considdered an elite, so in the game, they could actually be some what stronger than they are.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

P.S. coolguyz, my multiplayer formation can beat yours any day:


coolguyz

[Civil1z@tion]

No, seriously (difficult not to laugh at the above quote though), the Gauls and the Britons used chariots with great effect in battle, and the Egypt chariots armed with archers was one of the most formiddable sights, exept elephants, on a battlefield. Their, both the british, gaulish and egyptian, chariots was an almost perfect weapon or terror and destruction. It took Ceasar two attemts, and huge cassualties, to break both the gauls and the british chariot formations. But the egyptian chariot archers was considdered an elite, so in the game, they could actually be some what stronger than they are.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

Celtic chariots were somewhat effective but no match for the Roman legions (its worth noting that the Romans had more trouble with the Parthians than the Gauls or Britons, and the Parthians used horse archers not chariots).

Also by the time of the Hellenistic era, Egyptian chariots were obselete and not used. The Egyptian armies of the Ptolemaic period used pike phalangties like the rest of the successor states. The real era of dominate Egyptian chariots was during the New Kingdom Period circa 1500-1000BC and those chariots were owned by Assyrians on horseback. Egyptian chariots were highly effective against the slower, larger Hittie chariots and against enemy infantry, but once calvary came into play they lost most usefulness. The last really effective chariots were not archer platforms but chariots meant to charge into the mass of the enemy, in particular scythe chariots. The advantage was that they were large and would impact the enemy line with far more force than the relatively lightly armored calvary of the time, but Alexander the Great developed tactics against this by allowing the chariots (which lacked manueverability) to pass through the line and while they were turning around have rear soliders kill them. The last great charge of the chariot was at Gaugamela and it was a total flop. Trained footsoliders could beat chariots quite easiely once they developed the tactics for it (just as later the era of the knight would actually be ended by the pike blocks of European infantry, gunpowder was only a secondary cause due to its slow reload and short range).

[mlc82]

Celtic chariots were somewhat effective but no match for the Roman legions (its worth noting that the Romans had more trouble with the Parthians than the Gauls or Britons, and the Parthians used horse archers not chariots).

Also by the time of the Hellenistic era, Egyptian chariots were obselete and not used. The Egyptian armies of the Ptolemaic period used pike phalangties like the rest of the successor states. The real era of dominate Egyptian chariots was during the New Kingdom Period circa 1500-1000BC and those chariots were owned by Assyrians on horseback. Egyptian chariots were highly effective against the slower, larger Hittie chariots and against enemy infantry, but once calvary came into play they lost most usefulness. The last really effective chariots were not archer platforms but chariots meant to charge into the mass of the enemy, in particular scythe chariots. The advantage was that they were large and would impact the enemy line with far more force than the relatively lightly armored calvary of the time, but Alexander the Great developed tactics against this by allowing the chariots (which lacked manueverability) to pass through the line and while they were turning around have rear soliders kill them. The last great charge of the chariot was at Gaugamela and it was a total flop. Trained footsoliders could beat chariots quite easiely once they developed the tactics for it (just as later the era of the knight would actually be ended by the pike blocks of European infantry, gunpowder was only a secondary cause due to its slow reload and short range).

I second most of this. Keep in mind that vanilla RTW's portrayal of "Egypt" as something from either (at best) "Old Kingdom Egypt", or just something from the "Mummy" movies, which in reality was under the Ptolemaic Diadochi at the time, would be like a World War II game portraying the British as using the same troops that the Saxons did vs the Normans at Hastings! Horrifically innacurate by all means.

[Chicken]

yep, RTW vanilla DID NOT take into account historical facts, they just want to make factions more fun to play.

[MortenJessen]

Celtic chariots were somewhat effective but no match for the Roman legions (its worth noting that the Romans had more trouble with the Parthians than the Gauls or Britons, and the Parthians used horse archers not chariots).

Also by the time of the Hellenistic era, Egyptian chariots were obselete and not used. The Egyptian armies of the Ptolemaic period used pike phalangties like the rest of the successor states. The real era of dominate Egyptian chariots was during the New Kingdom Period circa 1500-1000BC and those chariots were owned by Assyrians on horseback. Egyptian chariots were highly effective against the slower, larger Hittie chariots and against enemy infantry, but once calvary came into play they lost most usefulness. The last really effective chariots were not archer platforms but chariots meant to charge into the mass of the enemy, in particular scythe chariots. The advantage was that they were large and would impact the enemy line with far more force than the relatively lightly armored calvary of the time, but Alexander the Great developed tactics against this by allowing the chariots (which lacked manueverability) to pass through the line and while they were turning around have rear soliders kill them. The last great charge of the chariot was at Gaugamela and it was a total flop. Trained footsoliders could beat chariots quite easiely once they developed the tactics for it (just as later the era of the knight would actually be ended by the pike blocks of European infantry, gunpowder was only a secondary cause due to its slow reload and short range).

Hi there.
First, chariots was last used as both troop and tactical (weapons and supplies) transports by the egyptians, and that was all the way up to apox the destruction of the Ptolymaian rule in the roman civil war. Next, the discussion was not weither they were actually in use or not, but how efficiant they where. And the egyptian chariot archers was, in their days, the elite of the egyptian army. Hence, in RTW, they could be more powerfull. And the british and gaulish chariots was, when first deployed against Caesars forces, obsolete but imensely deadly. They where used to break the roman cavalry with great succes. Since the roman cavalry was defenceless against scythed chariots.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

[Civil1z@tion]

Hi there.
First, chariots was last used as both troop and tactical (weapons and supplies) transports by the egyptians, and that was all the way up to apox the destruction of the Ptolymaian rule in the roman civil war. Next, the discussion was not weither they were actually in use or not, but how efficiant they where. And the egyptian chariot archers was, in their days, the elite of the egyptian army. Hence, in RTW, they could be more powerfull. And the british and gaulish chariots was, when first deployed against Caesars forces, obsolete but imensely deadly. They where used to break the roman cavalry with great succes. Since the roman cavalry was defenceless against scythed chariots.
Y.S.
M. Jessen

Egyptian chariots were powerful in the 12th century bc, a thousand years before. They were no longer used or useful in warfare by about 1000bc. Here's a site telling the history of Egyptian chariots. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm

The chariot loses basically all of its usefulness when you can ride on horseback. Their last real military use in the Near East was the Scythe chariots which were proven useless 50 years before the start of RTW. Furthermore, these were not Egytpian chariots as Egyptian chariots were light-weight, designed to move fast, and meant as a mobile archer platform. When archers could be mounted on horseback, those soldiers were faster, cheaper to maintain, and more manueverable. The idea that an Egyptian-style chariot archer could be equally useful or more useful than a mounted archer is ridiculous. With Alexander's tactics against scythe chariots even those devices were not usable by the 3rd century BC.

[Lysimachus]

Chariots were used because the horses of the time were not strong enough themselves to allow a man to mount. Once the strongest horses had been bred selectively for generation after generation it finally reached the point where this was possible and chariots were just phased out over time.

[Chicken]

Chariots were used because the horses of the time were not strong enough themselves to allow a man to mount. Once the strongest horses had been bred selectively for generation after generation it finally reached the point where this was possible and chariots were just phased out over time.

yarrrrr, i agree.

[Parzival2211]

Thanks for your enlightening answers, guys.

[ithinkitsdead]

Chariots weren't really just discontinued at one set time. Depending onthe nation and their horses, they used them.
Im pretty sure that the Romans didnt actually use them...

[Parzival2211]

I read that the Celts in Britain were the last ones who used them for battle. I guess the artillery chariots in BI are pure fantasy.
In the Middle East, apparently, they stopped using them much earlier than in Britain.

[{GrailKnight}]

The artillery chariots may be fantasy, but you have to admit they are cool

[Parzival2211]

VeDran: I haven't even played BI yet. Just had a brief look. Still playing my first campaign on RTW.

Civil1z@tion: That was a very insightful post. Thank you very much.

mlc82 and coolguyz: I totally agree with you. In a way, that's ok, but I am glad that there are mods who make a greater effort to represent history as it actually was.