Question about 'England'

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

Why is it in all of these mods, that noone has attempted to change the fact England was English at the time? It's was Norman. They spoke Norman French in the courts. I mean, the common soldiers still probably spoke English in some form of another, but for a long time most of the nobility spoke Norman French, or Anglo-Norman French.


I just never got that. Not to be a stickler or anything.

[Caesar Clivus]

Can I suggest you look at Aweselley's submod

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=271792

[Tyrenia]

Why is it in all of these mods, that noone has attempted to change the fact England was English at the time?

I think that it's mostly a game enjoyment thing. What self-respecting English player would like to have the feeling that they are playing as a French faction.* And besides, the time frame of the game is such that after the 1360s, the official language of the Kingdom was English. And it also give the game a bit of accent variety (however poorly done).

*Note: I am not English

[Tacitursa]

Only the upper class spoke Anglo-Norman everything else remained English. William had no wish to change the english language or culture atall quite the oposite.

French was the official language of courts untill around 1700 it dosent mean England was french or spoke french.

Im sure it was just the best language to communicate in such a field during the period because most people in europe would have been fluent in french alot more so than they were in English.

Much like today with English being the official language of UN , Buisness etc because its the language most people understand.

The English population is german more than anything our ancestors are the Angles, Saxons and Jutes more commonly known as the Anglo-saxons. Next largest population is probaly the Vikings and after them the Celts. Normans made up a very small ammount of the population.

It's estimated that there was a population of around 1.2 million in england in 1100 and Only around 15,000 normans came to England give or take a few thousand so they made up around 1-3% of the total population.

[Arcapt]

Much like today with English being the official language of UN , Buisness etc because its the language most people understand.

Not the language that most people understand, just the language of the world's dominant nation just as french was the language of a dominant court. French language wasn't understood by a vast majority of french subjects(historically it is the dialect of Paris and its region which we now call "Ile-de-France"), for long it has only been that of the royal court and judicial system. Very similar to norman-conquered England in that aspect.

The English population is german more than anything our ancestors are the Angles, Saxons and Jutes more commonly known as the Anglo-saxons. Next largest population is probaly the Vikings and after them the Celts. Normans made up a very small ammount of the population.

It's estimated that there was a population of around 1.2 million in england in 1100 and Only around 15,000 normans came to England give or take a few thousand so they made up around 1-3% of the total population.

It may come as a shock, but you're not! You britons are mostly from iberian descent, and if your language is of german structure, more than half your vocabulary is of latin origin(be it latin directly, norman or french). It seems rather difficult to classify you guys as either germanic or french, however i'm sure being english/welsh/scottish/irish is quite satisfying in itself.

[Tacitursa]

it may come as a shock, but you're not! You britons are mostly from iberian descent

Well if your basing that on DNA research then everyone on earth is of African descent and all further discussions are pointless.

[Sir Walter]

I think that it's mostly a game enjoyment thing. What self-respecting English player would like to have the feeling that they are playing as a French faction.* And besides, the time frame of the game is such that after the 1360s, the official language of the Kingdom was English. And it also give the game a bit of accent variety (however poorly done).

*Note: I am not English

I would rather play as a real French nation than a fake English one. In my opinion, captains, spies, merchants and assassins should speak English, and all others have the "French" voicepacks.

[Kawee]

Did that 1-3% hold most of the power, though?

[Tacitursa]

Barrack obama holds most of the US power does that make the united states kenyan now? no it doesnt.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

Barrack obama holds most of the US power does that make the united states kenyan now? no it doesnt.

What a grand non sequitur!

(Rouoyaume d'Aunglléterre!)

Anywho - they did have a broad impact on the culture and language of the English. Most of governance was done in Norman/Latin, and Middle-English later came onto the scene as that mixture of the peasantry being all.. normo-fied.


Anyone who would have had power in this time-frame would have been Norman, or Normacized. They'd not risk giving power to those who'd change it back to the ways of the the 'Freemen' styled ways of England. Norman rule was absolute, that's why the witengamot was dissolved.

[Kawee]

Barrack obama holds most of the US power does that make the united states kenyan now? no it doesnt.

Well....Obama is American, not Kenyan. He might be of Kenyan descendant but he's an American alright. Why else would he be the American President.

It's irrelevant anyway.

My point was that although Normans only made up a small part of the population they can have tremendous influence.

[Angrychris]

They all speak english

[Furious Mental]

Anglo-Norman was an English-influenced variation of Norman, which was a variation on Picard, which was a dialect that predated the standardisation of French (i.e. Parisian French) by several hundred years. In other words, it would be no more historically accurate to have the English speaking French than it would be to have the English speaking Greek.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

However, Norman, Anglo-Norman, Latin, and Law French were the legal and proper languages of the governing/military body. English was just the language of all the Englishmen, and even it began to become Normo-Francized.

At this point in time, the English were not English. They were Norman subjects. They were no longer the freemen of England, they were basically surfs and met the curfews of their lords. Even curfew is a word from Norman french! Couvre feu, cover the fire.

That, and in the 1080 campaign, and later you are still in possession of Normandy. I mean, England was basically French, and once it lost ties with the continent altogether after the 100 years war.. it lost its.. Frenchness. English became English again, the Englanders had finally managed to wrestle control from the Norman-Monarchs, the Barons had pooped on the king basically. Made England more 'democratic' with its Kingship as it had been when it was English-English.

If Normandy/England still owned half of France, I do think it'd of been.. french. All English was at this time was a creole of Englisc, Latin, and Norman french, because.. everything that was legal/having to do with property were.. well.. Latin and French.

[Tacitursa]

If Normandy/England still owned half of France, I do think it'd of been.. french. All English was at this time was a creole of Englisc, Latin, and Norman french, because.. everything that was legal/having to do with property were.. well.. Latin and French.

No everything was English no laws changed no systems changed the only thing that changed was the people in charge of said things spoke French instead of English.

And Latin and English were used for most documents and proclamations by William not Latin and French.

less than 1.3% of the entire population spoke french and less 1.3% of the population were french. The remaining 98.7% were English and Spoke English. England was never french , never has been and never will be.

And the only reason Normans remained in Controll was because of william. He wanted everything to remain english , he didnt want french as the official language etc etc. If things were different and he enforced French language , culture , laws etc onto the British population things would of been ALOT different.

Im pretty sure 1.3 million angry britons would have easily overpowered a few thousands normans and thats the exact reason why william kept everything english he knew he wouldnt be able to controll england any other way.

[HIC SVNT LEONES]

You do know despite the Norman Barons, Knights, and Lords after Hastings and the initial conquering of the north, as well as putting down rebellions for some 8 or so years.. were only in a small number of 5-8 thousand. They were given confiscated lands from Old English Lords, some English who'd submitted were given their land back and titles as well. Now, when William had his Domesday, this reckoning of property and value... did you know most of the names in this book, despite being all of England were mostly either Norman/French.

Hell, England for two hundred years after conquest even was using Law French to govern a good deal of England.

William did not submit to the English, they submitted to him. While he did not oust English as a language, he affected it greatly. Changed it for all time, and if the Norman aristocracy, along with Kingship would have been there longer.. we'd of been speaking French, I fear. But.. thank the.... well.. French for that, because they killed England's Norman Lords' urges to reclaim lost French land in the Hundred Years War. Its the period were England was becoming English again.

It's not a bad thing. I'm just saying for most of the early and a good deal of the middle of the Middle Ages. England, was Norman. This does not mean every peasant spoke French. Most of the English of import fled to the Byzantium, Scotland, Ireland and a few other places. But people were still speaking English, though it was increasingly changing because to be able to keep your property from being taken in a tax.. they were increasingly learning Latin and French legal terms. Why do you think most technical, legal, scientific.. are of a Latin/French/Norman background?

[BohemianHussar]

Judging from what I remember in my Ancient Medieval class last year, I believe the English or Britons are more of a giant mixture of every culture because if you think of how many times England/The British Isles were invaded and conquered you have at least 5-6 different ethnic groups coming into play. The vikings and many of the German groups such as the Saxons, you have the previous owners the romans, you have the very first group to come (The Britons or the Iberian descent, whichever you prefer to call it) and then you have the Normans invading them. Not in that order though but hopefully someone catches my drift. English for the factions language kinda makes sense though, no brit would want to play a British faction with a french accent and only the nobles really did speak french from what I remember. Besides the English language itself is like one giant smorgasborg of german, latin, french (I think), maybe a bit of nordic because of the norse coming along, and maybe gailic, Sorry been awhile since I read into my history and a long while since class. All i know for sure is Welsh Long bows are your friend.

[Tumerok]

The Normans were french?
England has been conquered many times?
England is the offspring of germanic culture?
Where do you people get this stuff from.
Normans were vikingr raiders that settled in northern france (and other parts of europe) and the last thing they considered themselves were french, william would want to personally kill you ppl for saying this stuff. More like the nobility saw Normandy as a temporary base for the invasion of England.

You can't forcefully conquer the british people, if you try that you'll end up losing a lot of soldiers to unruly kids alone. most of the time britain was just warring tribes you could turn against each other anyway. You have to unify them which is why the romans were sort of succsesful at it the second time round as they were good at that and letting people keep their gods and cultures, but you could argue even though they had the right soft approach of let us just build you lots of things, they were lucky they caught the brits at a sleepy time and the roman legions didn't all get slaughtered a second time round during the initial invasion.
Besides that william and the normans were the only invaders that managed to unify most of England, which is why the date 1066 is so important is british history, it's more or less a start mark for england as a nation.

Talking about where the people are from is pointless, obvoiusly originally everyone is from central africa, if you want to start dividing up people in europe (even though long ago most people had some blood from everywhere) then the best place to start would be groups of how far north they migrated before they settled, so you have northern africans, mediterraneans, mid/southern europe(north of alps, south france, south german etc), northern europe (british isles, scandanavia etc) and of course different groups who change to their climate and lifestyle going further east and west too.
So obvoiusly the original real british people (what we call the picts and celts, or non continental celts to be specific) were the hunter gatherers who continued north to Britain+Ireland when it was still connected to mainland europe or when the english channel was just shallows and until the gap fully opened. After that as far back as we know the romans sailed to britain and settled and mixed there until people do today.
Most people in britain even several hundred years ago probably had blood in them from either scandanavia, France/Germany and slightly further east to even the mediterranean. But even more will always have the blood of the original ancient people who settled there thats what makes and keeps them british.

Call it 'germanic' culture if you will but it doesn't make the ancient brits or gauls anymore more germanic than the ancient germans were british celt or gaulish. the same way the english and french languages arent anymore alike to german than german is to english or french.

At the end of the day if u asked most peasants who the king was in early middle ages they probably wouldnt know or wouldn't care, and most of history is determined by individual actions and in reality those individuals probably didn't care about king and country, they were fighting for the people back home if neccesary or the ones they were shoulder to shoulder with.
rly not complicated ppl just cause and effect

..or they were fighting for money o/c every1 loves fighting for money

[Caesar Clivus]

The Normans were french?
England has been conquered many times?
England is the offspring of germanic culture?
Where do you people get this stuff from.
Normans were vikingr raiders that settled in northern france (and other parts of europe) and the last thing they considered themselves were french, william would want to personally kill you ppl for saying this stuff. More like the nobility saw Normandy as a temporary base for the invasion of England.

Actually by the time of William the Conqueror, the Normans were pretty much French...or Frankish to be correct. The Normans assimilated themselves into frankish culture to a huge degree, so much so that duke William Longsword had to send his son elsewhere to learn Danish. And saying that the Normans just used Normandy as a base for invading England completely ignores all the grandiose building projects and the complex political state that they set up in northern france.

[Sir Walter]

Actually by the time of William the Conqueror, the Normans were pretty much French...or Frankish to be correct. The Normans assimilated themselves into frankish culture to a huge degree, so much so that duke William Longsword had to send his son elsewhere to learn Danish. And saying that the Normans just used Normandy as a base for invading England completely ignores all the grandiose building projects and the complex political state that they set up in northern france.

They'd been there for nearly two centuries and Normandy is very fertile, I don't think Hrolf planned for his great-grandson's invasion of England when he settled at Rouen. And why can't we have Rouen instead of Caen?