About Faction Naming

[Duke Atreides]

EDIT: This WIP list is at least 10 months out of date. It contains numerous mistakes that have been long since fixed so please don't comment on it. If you really want to know what's up, you'll have to read the whole thread or wait until we post something that is up to date.

~sumskilz

So, I saw in the "which faction will you play first" thread, someone asked about the way DotS (henceforth "you") spells Lithuania's name in Lithuanian, "Lietuvos Didþioji Kunigaikðtystë." They said it was wrong, that it should be "Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė" and you said that you were using Old English letters to represent what you'd otherwise have to use accents for. This is something I really honestly have a problem with, and a mod going for historical accuracy should really get this stuff right. First off, thorn and eth have never (to my knowledge) been used for the sounds represented in Lithuanian by ž and š. Thorn (þ) represents the voiceless interdental fricative as found in the English words thorn or thump. Eth (ð) represents the voiced interdental fricative as found in the English words that or this. The Lithuanian ž and š represent, respectively, sounds similar (if not nearly identical to) the s in pleasure (voiced postalveolar fricative) and the sh in shoot (voiceless postalveolar fricative). Second, you may have noticed that the voicing for thorn and ž and eth and š are entirely at odds. Not only do the two pairs of of letters represent entirely different places of articulation (yours with the tongue in between the teeth and the Lithuanian with the tongue touching the ridge behind your front teeth), but the voicing's not even right! 0 for 2 for DotS. Third, Old English had no voiced postalveolar fricative, and their voiceless one was represented by the digraph sc (e.g., Englisc), so your claim becomes even more bizarre. Fourth, instead of ė you use ë. With respect, ë is not a letter in any version of Old English I've come across, nor in Lithuanian. Fifth, you don't really follow this proclaimed convention of avoiding diacritics for any other faction, excepting the Seljuks. You use ó for the Królestwo Polskie, you've got á for the Magyar, ç for the Turks, the Rus' get their final softening (which is problematic; we'll come back to it), but eth pops up again for the Great Seljuks. I don't speak a Turkic language, but it looks like someone's overcompensated there as well, and given the Turkic tendency to use ç or c for the postalveolar affricate, I'd wager that's what it should be. And after all of this, the poor Županija Raska doesn't get their hardfought Ž. Now, going back to Rus', the ь of the contemporary Slavic language represented a super-short front vowel, often written as y.

Well, with all of that out there, I'll make a few suggestions: Give the Lithuanian for the Grand Duchy as "Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė," with the proper letters. Give the Županija their ž, and maybe even write Bulgaria's Tzarstvo as Tsarstvo, as the Z is more or less a(n anachronistic) German innovation. Considering that Serbia gets a Carstvo, you might even consider agreeing on either Carstvo, Tsarstvo, or (if you must) Tzarstvo for both factions. If you still want to avoid diacritics for consonants, then please give the Lithuanian as "Lietuvos Didzioji Kunigaikstystė." I'd wager that eth and thorn are less familiar to the average M2TW/DotS player than ž and š, and a simple z or s will probably render the name marginally less terrifying than the random, anachronistic, and simply incorrect OE characters.
For reference, here's the faction list I've been working from.

EDIT: After some further research triggered by a bad feeling, I've discovered that y with acute accent isn't a letter (or used in standard transliteration) in Turkish, Azeri, Kazakh, Uzbek, or Uyghur. It's used in transliterating Turkmen, but I have to ask, what is it standing in for? Dotless I? Given the other inconsistencies I felt it best to ask.

Faction List:
(SECOND BRACKETS= available transitions, unlocking traits, units and technology)
1. (Georgia) Sakartvelos Samepho
2. (England) Kingdom of England
3. (France) Regnum Francie
4. (Scotland) Rìoghachd na h'Alba
5. (HRE) Sacrum Imperium (Teutonic Order State)
6. (Denmark) Kongeriget Danmark
7. (Sweden) Sveariket
8. (Norway) Konungadomae Noreg
9. (Lithuania) Lietuvos Didþioji Kunigaikðtystë (Union of Poland-Lithuania)
10. (Novgorod) Gosudar' Gospodin Velikiy Novgorod
11. (Poland) Królestwo Polskie (Union of Poland-Lithuania)
12. (Hungary) Magyar Királyság
13. (genoa & milan etc) Comuni liberi
14. (pisa & florence etc) Comuni Toscani
15. (Venice) Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia
16. (Sicily) Sicilia (County & Kingdom)
17. (Aragon) Aragón (Kingdom of Aragon, Crown of Aragon)
18. (Leon-Castile) Reino de Castilla y Reinu de Llión
19. (Portugal) Portucale (County & Kingdom)
20. (Moors) Muslimun Al-Gharb (Almovarids, Almohads, Benemarids)
21. (Egypt) Sultan Misr (Ayyubids, Fatimids, Mamluks)
22. (Turks) Anadolu Selçuklularý (Rum Sultunate - Ottomans)
23. (Byzantines) Basilía ton Romaion (Byzantine Empire, Empire of Nicaea)
24. (Armenia) Hayastan
25. (Kiev) Rus' (Kiev & Vladimir-Suzdal)
26. (Bohemia) Cechy
27. (Kypchaks/Golden Horde) *****
28. (Tutushids/Zengids/Mamluks) Ash'Shamm ****
29. (Great Seljuks/Il Khanate Mongols) Doðu ve batýnýn Cihan devleti
30. (Papacy) ****(Papal States & Crusader States)
31. Minor Factions

***** WIP
later version additional campaign factions
(Serbia) Srbija (Velika Zupanija Raska, Srpsko Carstvo)
(Bulgaria) Tzarstvo Balgaria
(Kingdom of Jerusalem)

[Achilla]

This mod STRIVES to be as historically-accurate as possible, but without correct researchers (and to my knowledge eastern Europe is one of the least developed research areas) it's impossible. So yeah, if you see something to your mind stupid or weird, feel free to create a thread and post an insightful post with some research value in itself, just like you did, now.

[Neige]

I don't understand why factions have to be named in that manner. The whole mod will be in english, right? So why do we need such complicated names, which are only understandable to people of the respective nation. I mean it would make sense to understand who is the faction I am playing. I know only 4 languages and I can't guess what all the other names mean..

I understand that this mod strives to be as historically accurate as possible, but I think that is just too much for a casual player.

[Copperknickers II]

I don't understand why factions have to be named in that manner. The whole mod will be in english, right?

No.

So why do we need such complicated names, which are only understandable to people of the respective nation. I mean it would make sense to understand who is the faction I am playing. I know only 4 languages and I can't guess what all the other names mean..

1. You will soon learn those that are not obvious.

2. There will be a translation, but we prefer to give them authentic names as it adds to the feel.

I understand that this mod strives to be as historically accurate as possible, but I think that is just too much for a casual player.

The players of EB don't seem to mind, and the latter is one of the most popular RTW mods. We do certainly aspire to them. And if you think DotS is going to be some SS style casual Euro rampage, then you haven't read the preview very carefully

[Duke Atreides]

While scrolling down the page to check the new posts, I noticed a few more things. The Almoravids are named as the Almovarids. The Basileia ton Rhomaion is given as the Basilia ton Romaion. There's an eta in the word Basileia, and the Rho in Rhomaion is written with a heavy breathing mark. Basileia ton Rhomaion would be the way to do it.

So, I'm feeling this sort of "oh well that's nice" response, but are you guys going to do anything about this? Do these haphazard typographical conventions extend to unit names and the like? I understand and support the idea of imitating EB's naming conventions, but it would be a shame if the mod came out with Old English characters in Turkic or Baltic unit names.

[Azim]

It takes less than five seconds to change a faction's name, so the minute one of us reads a post with a correction, you can consider the change done.

[Duke Atreides]

Just asking, because when (what appeared to be) a native Lithuanian speaker corrected the name of Lithuania it seemed to me like the response was somewhat dismissive. If you'd like I'd be happy to go over unit/character names and just check for typographical inconsistencies and the like.

EDIT: My question vis-a-vis the Great Seljuks still stand. Copperknickers, from what I understand you're in charge of that? Any comment?

[GeneralAlzheimer]

i don't think so, archer9. you understand all the names very quickly and get used to it. being a historian myself i understand the guys from DotS very well. it's just amazing to see whole texts written in old languages. i'm at last able to play EB now and it's just fantastic to read the troops' names in the original language and to hear them speaking the original language. there really aren't many people who speak carthaginian or parthian.
go on lads. i'm keen on finally playing your mod for one year already.

[Hengest]

Thank you Atriedes!

[sumskilz]

I understand that this mod strives to be as historically accurate as possible, but I think that is just too much for a casual player.

We are likely to do something like this with faction and unit names in order to make thing comprehensible to English speaking players: Strážci Hranic (Frontier Guards)

I think that way you'll begin to learn a bit of the language without having it disrupt gameplay. Playing EB, I learned a lot just from the voicemod because units shout out their name in their native language when selected. After a bit, the English translations on the unit cards were no longer necessary.

[sumskilz]

a native Lithuanian speaker corrected the name of Lithuania it seemed to me like the response was somewhat dismissive.

Which response was dismissive? If we disagree with you we'll debate the issue, but if we believe that you are correct there is no reason to waste any time discussing it further because our time is better spent modding.

Do these haphazard typographical conventions extend to unit names and the like?

I think the haphazardness with typographical errors is only in the forum. I'm not promising that we won't make any mistakes, but we are much more careful with our in game text. For example, I have no idea about the correct way to transliterate "Basileia ton Rhomaion" but we have native Greek speakers on the team.

My question vis-a-vis the Great Seljuks still stand.

I didn't notice that you asked a question about the Seljuks, but if you caught that we didn't use the correct name for them you are right. This is because the Seljuks can transition to Kwarazm and/or the Il Khanate so their name is deliberately generic. This is really a game engine limitations issue.

[Duke Atreides]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=281376 Posts 4 and 5

True born Lithuanian said "29 playable factions,sweet. Btw, name of Lithuania spelled wrong, there are some strange letters wich should be replaced: Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė"

Copperknickers responded with "They are old English letters. They are just an alternative way of writing sounds that do not appear in english instead of accents."

It's good to hear that the units are named rather more carefully than the forums make it seem.

The question about the Seljuks was an edit to my first post (no one had posted and I didn't want to doublepost):

"EDIT: After some further research triggered by a bad feeling, I've discovered that y with acute accent isn't a letter (or used in standard transliteration) in Turkish, Azeri, Kazakh, Uzbek, or Uyghur. It's used in transliterating Turkmen, but I have to ask, what is it standing in for? Dotless I? Given the other inconsistencies I felt it best to ask."

I'm just guessing the resources you guys used weren't Turkmen, they're not a terribly scholarly country to my knowledge.

[Copperknickers II]

I am Head of Research (with Alkidas) but the decision to change the Seljuq name was made a long time ago. Chances are it was suggested by one of the old Muslim researchers, who have vanished off the face of the earth. I don't speak Turkmeni i'm afraid but if acute y is used, i am fine with using it. I'll do some checks just to make sure, thank you for your input.

[Duke Atreides]

And the eth in their name? That's rather more distressing.

[Zhangir]

With all due respect I disagree with some names!
I want to contribute to the mod, so I modified the list.
Please look at it, I would especially like Duke Atreides's attention
My changes are in to Names are in Bold, my reasoning, etc. in italics.

So here is Zhangir's list of Faction names for Dominion of Sword, for examination, discussion and possible approval

1. (Georgia) Sakartvelos Samepho (Cool here Checked in Agtsera Sameposa Sakartvelosa which is description of Georgian Kingdom)
2. (England) Kingdom of England (Very Logical, and I agree with the name here)
3. (France) Regnum Francie (This doesn't make sense! Why call England in English and Georgia in Georgian, i.e. use an an endonym for both, while using exonym for France???My name for France in Dominion of Sword Faction Names List would be Royaume de France, a French name for French Kingdom)
4. (Scotland) Rìoghachd na h'Alba (once again no complaints here, I see the reasoning of using the Gaelic version, rather than Scots, since Gaelic was earlier used. Is there the h'Alba or h-Alba? Cause I checked Wikipedia, which is known to be unreliable, and since I am not a Scottish/Gaelic speaker, we should clarify that)
5. (HRE) Sacrum Imperium (Teutonic Order State) (Now! Here we have a problem! I want the Admins to decide, or give me a hint, which are we using, the Exonyms or Endonyms??? Basingon Scotland, England, Georgia, i would say the latter! Sothe Endonym for the HRE is Heiliges Römisches Reich. The much more SUitable in this case Exonym (you could argue it's an Endonym as the HRE is sort of Roman Empire continuity) is Imperium Romanum Sacrum. We should not add the much later addition of "... of the German Nation". With all due respect, Sacrum Imperium seems incomplete? What's your opinion?)
6. (Denmark) Kongeriget Danmark (No Complaints here! All perfect!)
7. (Sweden) Sveariket (I am not sure about the T at the end! There is the Svearike which is the Swedish endonym BUT! it is attributed to 14th Century! Why don't we use Swerike or even the Older! Sviariki coming from Old Norse. I am at a loss at the t at the end... am I missing something??)
8. (Norway) Konungadomae Noreg (Again! I don't want to cause a lot of trouble here! BUT! I haven't heard of Konungadomae, also Noreg is the name in Nynorsk! Which was created in 1800s!!! So why don't we again go back to good old Old Norse (used up to 1300) and call Norway - Noregr. Regarding the Konungadomae, I am unsure of the term, and would ask the Author to provide historical etymological basis, please! I would propose to use the Kongeriket term, similar to the one of Danmark, but in Norwegian)
9. (Lithuania) Lietuvos Didþioji Kunigaikðtystë (Union of Poland-Lithuania) (Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė is the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, that's right! Union of Poland-Lithuania is Królestwo Polskie i Wielkie Księstwo Litewskie but this is a 16th century name in Polish, while the Lithuanian version is Lenkijos Karalystė ir Lietuvos Didžioji Kunigaikštystė)
10. (Novgorod) Gosudar' Gospodin Velikiy Novgorod (This is the Endonym for Novogorod! Right! THe cyrilic version is Государь Господин Великий Новгород, being a Russian speaker, I can see that today it looks strange, GOsudar' and Gospodin mean basically the same. But the Author of the Thread was totally right there.It is known better in RUssia today, or even historically without the First Gosudar')
11. (Poland) Królestwo Polskie (Union of Poland-Lithuania) (The endonym is correct, moving on)
12. (Hungary) Magyar Királyság (Again, this is correct)
13. (genoa & milan etc) Comuni liberi
14. (pisa & florence etc) Comuni Toscani (I am at a loss here, you obviously mean the Free Comunes, but that is a bit not too specific! Could I have people explaining me what is this Comuni Liberi meant to represent? If you to show several Italian city-states, use Repubbliche marinare? Note these 2 wikipedia articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_commune
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repubbliche_Marinare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_League
Could someone explain the reasoning in naming the 13 and 14 numbered factions as they are?)
15. (Venice) Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia (The name given is in Italian language! Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta is the name in Venetian language! So please do correct it to the Venetian equivalent, again referring to Endonyms and Exonyms)
16. (Sicily) Sicilia (County & Kingdom) (While totaly correct, I just have to add, that Kingdom of Sicily would be Regnu di Sicilia, while County would be Contado di Sicilia)
17. (Aragon) Aragón (Kingdom of Aragon, Crown of Aragon) (Reino d'Aragón would be Kingdom of Aragon, Corona d'Aragón is Crown of Aragon)
18. (Leon-Castile) Reino de Castilla y Reinu de Llión (agreed)
19. (Portugal) Portucale (County & Kingdom) (Condado Portucalense is the County Reino is the Kingdom)
20. (Moors) Muslimun Al-Gharb (Almovarids, Almohads, Benemarids) (this could be Al-Andalus, although I agree with the weakness of the term, seeing as its geographical, rather than political. If the start date is in 1080 then the Almoravid Empire was in Al-Andalus region at the time, which means we should use their name to define the state? Al-Murabitun is my best guess, as it is the proper name for Almmravid dynasty.
Why is the Muslimun Al-Gharb wrong? Well, it isn't and it means literally Muslims of the West, which is kind of... to vague? And without proper historic basis? All my previous names have historic basis. We don't want Arabic players of Dominion of The Sword complain over names!
But if this version has support, let me introduce Muslimun Al-Andalus? Maybe it is a bit stretched. Al-Murabitun remains my best guess!)
21. (Egypt) Sultan Misr (Ayyubids, Fatimids, Mamluks) (Misr is one of the names for Egypt. Again, I would go for al-Fātimiyyūn, as this is the name of Egypt in 1080 which is presumably the start date. You might later have it changing into Sultanat al-Mamalik, the Mameluk sultanate, see 1st footnote below)
22. (Turks) Anadolu Selçuklularý (Rum Sultunate - Ottomans) (AH! Turkish! Turkish is very similar to Kazakh in a sense! So SelcuklularY would be possessive, same as if belonging to Seljuks! So the real one would be Anadolu Selçuklu Devleti, while the name for the Elevated/Holy Ottoman Empire would be Devlet-i ʿAliyye-i ʿOs̠māniyye, a somewhat proud name)
23. (Byzantines) Basilía ton Romaion (Byzantine Empire, Empire of Nicaea) (Yep, no question here! We all love Βασιλεία τῶν Ῥωμαίων and Βασίλειον τῆς Νίκαιας (written in modern Greek so you don't get confused, I just like the way it looks lol)
24. (Armenia) Hayastan (Hayastan is more modern as Stan is Persian word, the more ancient is Metz Hayk, or Կիլիկիոյ Հայկական Թագաւորութիւն lol...whatever that means LOL, i know the middle word says Armenia, the whole thing is the Cilician Kingdom of Armenia, btw)
25. (Kiev) Rus' (Kiev & Vladimir-Suzdal) (Now! Shouldn't we call Rus', Kievan Rus'? NO! The Author was Right! Kievan Rus is the new name, dated to Karamazin! However, I propose to use the following Combination of Latin Letters to provide the Russian letters! (THis is how we text message each other in pOst-Soviet Union in Cyilic letters, since we use English/Latin lettered Mobile Phones, btw lol) Pycb, which is resembling Русь in cyrilic script! Just a proposition, if Medieval 2 Faction Names can't be filled in in Cyrilic LOL
26. (Bohemia) Cechy (Čechy with the thingy above the first C... sorry for being to presise!)
27. (Kypchaks/Golden Horde) (Kypchak Khanate and Golden Horde Are one and the same thing trust me! THere was Kypchak Khanate before that, but in the period relevant, they are same! So! GOlden HOrde is Altin Orda in Kazakh (Алтын Орда) or Altan Ord in Mongolian. Kypchak is the proper name, so Kypshaktar - would be the Kazakh name, Kypchoklar would be Uzbek, Kipchaklar - Turkish, etc. )
28. (Tutushids/Zengids/Mamluks) Ash'Shamm **** (Mamluks - see above! Interesting fact! Mameluks are actually Kypchaks who are Hired to protect the holy land from the Crusaders, and are of nomadic-turkic origin, not Arabic!)
29. (Great Seljuks/Il Khanate Mongols) Doðu ve batýnýn Cihan devleti (Il Khan Ulus, i.e. The People of Il Khan (Ulus being Nation, People, Administrative Subdivision)
30. (Papacy) ****(Papal States & Crusader States) (Well it's easy Status Pontificius or Sancta Sedes, you chose!
31. Minor Factions

(Serbia) Srbija (Velika Zupanija Raska, Srpsko Carstvo) (Correct)
(Bulgaria) Tzarstvo Balgaria (Correct)
(Kingdom of Jerusalem) (Regnum Hierosolimitanum it is)


1st footnote: Fatimids turning into Mameluk sultanate would be better (after all from what I understand Sicily, Lithuania, Poland would be able to change names) rather than having the Sultanate al-Misr, and just sticking with Egypt.

Why don't we have an even when Mameluks take over (eg. your Fatimid dynasty dies?) and then your Sultanate changes names! Bam!
How do you like that idea?
THis would also easen up the naming of Moors, as I don't believe Muslimun al-gharb is a proper historical name )


So yea! Here You go!

Please Do consider!

Always eager to join DotS community!
Zhangir!

[Copperknickers II]

With all due respect I disagree with some names!
I want to contribute to the mod, so I modified the list.


So here is Zhangir's list of Faction names for Dominion of Sword, for examination, discussion and possible approval

3. (France) Regnum Francie (This doesn't make sense! Why call England in English and Georgia in Georgian, i.e. use an an endonym for both, while using exonym for France???My name for France in Dominion of Sword Faction Names List would be Royaume de France, a French name for French Kingdom)

Historically, France's official language was Latin.

4. (Scotland) Rìoghachd na h'Alba (once again no complaints here, I see the reasoning of using the Gaelic version, rather than Scots, since Gaelic was earlier used. Is there the h'Alba or h-Alba? Cause I checked Wikipedia, which is known to be unreliable, and since I am not a Scottish/Gaelic speaker, we should clarify that)

It should be 'na h-Alba', i know a little Gaidhlig. I should note it is 'na h-alba' in the game, that's just a typo.

5. (HRE) Sacrum Imperium (Teutonic Order State) (Now! Here we have a problem! I want the Admins to decide, or give me a hint, which are we using, the Exonyms or Endonyms??? Basingon Scotland, England, Georgia, i would say the latter! Sothe Endonym for the HRE is Heiliges Römisches Reich. The much more SUitable in this case Exonym (you could argue it's an Endonym as the HRE is sort of Roman Empire continuity) is Imperium Romanum Sacrum. We should not add the much later addition of "... of the German Nation". With all due respect, Sacrum Imperium seems incomplete? What's your opinion?)

Again, its the official name that matters and the official name is Sacrum Imperium Romanum afaik.

20. (Moors) Muslimun Al-Gharb (Almovarids, Almohads, Benemarids) (this could be Al-Andalus, although I agree with the weakness of the term, seeing as its geographical, rather than political. If the start date is in 1080 then the Almoravid Empire was in Al-Andalus region at the time, which means we should use their name to define the state? Al-Murabitun is my best guess, as it is the proper name for Almmravid dynasty.
Why is the Muslimun Al-Gharb wrong? Well, it isn't and it means literally Muslims of the West, which is kind of... to vague? And without proper historic basis? All my previous names have historic basis. We don't want Arabic players of Dominion of The Sword complain over names!
But if this version has support, let me introduce Muslimun Al-Andalus? Maybe it is a bit stretched. Al-Murabitun remains my best guess!)

Remember, we are only allowed one name per faction, and one faction in this case includes the Almovarids, the Almohads and the Marinids as well.Besides, the Almovarids did not own al-Andalus, the Caliphate of Cordoba did.

21. (Egypt) Sultan Misr (Ayyubids, Fatimids, Mamluks) (Misr is one of the names for Egypt. Again, I would go for al-Fātimiyyūn, as this is the name of Egypt in 1080 which is presumably the start date. You might later have it changing into Sultanat al-Mamalik, the Mameluk sultanate, see 1st footnote below)

As i said, we can't change the name so we have to have one all inclusive name.

28. (Zengids/Mamluks) Ash'Shamm **** (Mamluks - see above! Interesting fact! Mameluks are actually Kypchaks who are Hired to protect the holy land from the Crusaders, and are of nomadic-turkic origin, not Arabic!)

I know, what is your point sorry?

1st footnote: Fatimids turning into Mameluk sultanate would be better (after all from what I understand Sicily, Lithuania, Poland would be able to change names) rather than having the Sultanate al-Misr, and just sticking with Egypt.

You forget the Ayyubids, we can't have Egypt withotu Saladin or everyone would go nuts.


Basically, our names are not as historically accurate as we would like, for the simple reason that we cannot change names, nor flags, in campaign. Transitions will be unit and tech tree changes only, i'm afraid. Spelling suggestions are welcome though.

[Zhangir]

OH! I didn't know that You did this list, Copperknickers. Let me say it's quite good! And even better with most of my additions lol


So!

- I accept that the Official Language was Latin, perhaps it would make sense to call Kingdom of France in Latin.
- We also have consensus on the Scottish issue! Great!

Again, its the official name that matters and the official name is Sacrum Imperium Romanum

- Well I was also pointing out at the Lack of "Romanum" word there
QUoting myself here

The much more SUitable in this case Exonym (you could argue it's an Endonym as the HRE is sort of Roman Empire continuity) is Imperium Romanum Sacrum

Going on
-

Remember, we are only allowed one name per faction, and one faction in this case includes the Almovarids, the Almohads and the Marinids as well.Besides, the Almovarids did not own al-Andalus, the Caliphate of Cordoba did.

Well from what I gathered, There is the Possibility of Emergent Factions, is there not?
Example, Poland - merging with Lithuania, HRE turning into Teutonic order?
Or is it not true?
Basing on that I proposed to have Almoravids replaced by Almohads, etc.

Regarding the Caliphate of Cordoba, it fractured in 1031, while the Almoravids appeared in 1040

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

Even if this fails to convince you, mate (don't be offended btw ) I still think that "Muslims of the West" is kind of vague.

Moving on!

I know, what is your point sorry?

Oh I was bored there, besides I read some other thread on the DotS forum, and just inserted an Interesting Fact.

And on again

You forget the Ayyubids, we can't have Egypt withotu Saladin or everyone would go nuts.

I am not forgeting them!! Oh no! I am a fan of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayyubid_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid_Caliphate

IF you look at the dates on the links above and compare. Fatimids are much older as dynasty and they were taken over by Ayyubids!
But regardless
THe name Sultan Misr is wrong
Firstly there should be Sultanate as Sultan is a person, whilst Sultanate is a state.
Secondly I am sure there should be the al-Misr thingy. I ll have to check that, don't quote me on that!


Sorry if I offended you in some way
I just wanna help with the research!
Anyways, back to business, I hope you ll like it and allow me to team up on the research further

Kind Regards
Zhangir

[Copperknickers II]

OH! I didn't know that You did this list, Copperknickers. Let me say it's quite good! And even better with most of my additions lol

I didn't do any of it, but i saw the decisions that led to most of the names.

- Well I was also pointing out at the Lack of "Romanum" word there

Yes, you'd have to ask someone else on that, my specialities are Britain and Muslims so i may well be wrong.

Going on

- Well from what I gathered, There is the Possibility of Emergent Factions, is there not?
Example, Poland - merging with Lithuania, HRE turning into Teutonic order?
Or is it not true?

No, no emergent factions. Transitions only, which as i said are changes in tech tree and units. Factions may dissapear or merge, but not emerge (excluding scripted ones like the Timmurids, who are rebels.)

Basing on that I proposed to have Almoravids replaced by Almohads, etc.

Almoravids, yes, please excuse me my inability to process those three letters in the correct order, i will get it some day. If it it is any consolation, i do that in my native language as well as Arabic.

Regarding the Caliphate of Cordoba, it fractured in 1031, while the Almoravids appeared in 1040

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_C%C3%B3rdoba

Again i am mixing things up, i meant the Umayyad caliphate. Here is the actual situation (drawn from the Cambridge History of Africa, no offense but i do not regard Wikipedia as a source per se) The Almoravids in 1080 were led by Ibn Tashfin. He conquered Fez in 1075 and ruled Morocco, but most of al-andalus was in control of the Muluk al-Tawa'if, an assortment of petty former Umayyad amirs who each ruled a small city state type affair in Iberia, and were not part of the Almoravids.

Even if this fails to convince you, mate (don't be offended btw ) I still think that "Muslims of the West" is kind of vague.

If you have a better name for our three different transitions, none of which had really substantial holdings in al-Andalus and all of which were essentially the Western remnants of the Caliphate, suggest away. I agree with you entirely but we do have game limitations that stop us from making it any more accurate, and we need a name that is not biased towards the Almovarids.

IF you look at the dates on the links above and compare. Fatimids are much older as dynasty and they were taken over by Ayyubids!
But regardless
THe name Sultan Misr is wrong
Firstly there should be Sultanate as Sultan is a person, whilst Sultanate is a state.
Secondly I am sure there should be the al-Misr thingy. I ll have to check that, don't quote me on that!

We were quoted 'Sultan Misr' by an Arabic native speaker is all i can say.

[Azim]

Zhangir, thanks for pointing out all of these problems. There seems to be some confusion because I was given the above list and told that all of the names were finalized, but Copper says that these are not the finalized list of names. In any cse, none of these names have made their way into our mod files at this point. My personal copy of the mod has these names added in, but I did not add these to the official version yet. We are still using English names in the official version. I'll use the corrected names once I get a confirmation from Copper or Alkidas.

Well technically Al-Andalus is more correct then Musliman Al-Gharb since its an actual term, not to mention Al-Andalus also includes North Africa, and the Berber dynasties were invited into Spain to protect Muslim city-states form the Christians. So what should happen is that although you may just start off with North African cities, you should later have all (or just most) of the independent cities in southern spain flip to your control, now that would be VERY historically correct.

I read a document written by a medieval Seljuk author just a few days ago, and he used the term "Muslims of the West" to refer to the people of Al-Andulas. (This was an English translation, so I'm not sure if any of the original meaning was lost.)

[Copperknickers II]

Zhangir, thanks for pointing out all of these problems. There seems to be some confusion because I was given the above list and told that all of the names were finalized, but Copper says that these are not the finalized list of names. In any cse, none of these names have made their way into our mod files at this point. My personal copy of the mod has these names added in, but I did not add these to the official version yet. We are still using English names in the official version. I'll use the corrected names once I get a confirmation from Copper or Alkidas.

I did? I am fine with using the current names, i just didn't know what the rules were about non-english characters.