Can Islam stay away from politics and become the religion of the individual?

[persianfan247]

Now all religions are generally political fron their conception (including Christianity), nor can religion ignore politics since religions are essentially a world view which can't help but encompass politics, but Islam has been very political from its birth with it resulting in the Creation of a new government and a massive empire.

But can it live with secular government, does it's scripture and ideology prevent it from doing so, maybe its built up traditions prevent is from doing so, if it is merely tradition, can these traditions be removed. Or maybe Islam is the victim of circumstance, making it very political in this day and age.

What is your view?

Please refrain from discussing whether Islam is correct of not, if it is the sibilying of Nazism or the reincarnatio of evil, how oppresive it is and whether God is real(since it is irrelevent to the question) unless it is "extremely" relevent. All I am wishing to be discussed is if it can be seperated from politics, can Muslims(which of course some do) keep there religion a private matter?

Oh yeah I of the opinion that is can, I guess I will have to give an argument why, will do so soon

Also not sure if it should go here or the political academy.

[mrcrusty]

Yes it can, but it will take time since it's rooted into the culture and tradition.

Turkey is living proof it can work though.

[Gauvin]

Yes it can, but it will take time since it's rooted into the culture and tradition.

Turkey is living proof it can work though.

It's surprising to me how many people don't know Turkey is moving the opposite direction. They did vote in an islamist government.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/04/12/48212.html

Tens of thousands of secularist Turks rallied in Ankara on Saturday against the ruling AK Party, which is facing a high court challenge by a prosecutor who wants it shut down for alleged Islamist activities.

But, there are many people throughout the Middle-East who see the benefits of secularism, so it's not all hopeless. Orthodox Islam, as it is, and as it has always been does not offer fertile grounds for individualism or liberalism, which are necessary components of democracy.

Isn't it interesting that one of the major flashpoints between the West, and especially the United States, and many Muslim countries is the complicity in suppressing democratic movements in favor of authoritarian governments.

I would love to see you state which democratic movements your referring to.

[motiv-8]

I would love to see you state which democratic movements your referring to.

Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey.

Iraq is the first time the United States clearly and complicitly engaged in nation-building with the objective of helping a democratic government succeed in a Muslim country. The examples I give above are all examples of the United States engaging in complicit suppression of democratic movements by tacitly or expressly supporting the status quo regime.

Oh.. but I forgot, you're one silly people who likes to pretend that democracy doesn't exist in Islam. This will be a useful conversation.

[Gauvin]

Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey.

I asked for democratic movements, not the nations in which they're active. Why are you reluctant or unable to name them?

I assume by Lebanon you mean Hizbullah, and not The Future Movement, the only liberal democratic party besides Ayman Nour's El-Ghad party in Egypt, which both are supported by the U.S..

If I asked you to name liberal democratic parties in the Mid-East, you couldn't find many, but you certainly couldn't find any currently or recently opposed by the U.S. I'm assuming your support, because you refuse to name them, is for religious fanatics seeking election to implement a program completely antithetical to democracy.

Oh.. but I forgot, you're one silly people who likes to pretend that democracy doesn't exist in Islam. This will be a useful conversation.

You've yet to prove that it's silly to think democracy isn't part of Islam. I do believe it can exist in the islamic world, because it does, however fledling. Democracy isn't part of Christianity either. Either you purposely misrepresent my opinions, or you just don't understand them, which might be my fault, I'm not sure. I support secular liberal parties in the mid-east because Islamism isn't democratic, it's religious supremacism, and authoritarianism.

The Ottoman Empire was not a truly Shariahic society, and that's the biggest Islamic Empire we're talking about.

Well, truly Shariahic is impossible, when you try it, you get a completely regressed and totalitarian society which no human being can realistically desire for long.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, truly Shariahic is impossible, when you try it, you get a completely regressed and totalitarian society which no human being can realistically desire for long.

Then every single state on the face of the Earth is Shariahic to some extent.

[motiv-8]

I asked for democratic movements, not the nations in which they're active. Why are you reluctant or unable to name them?

I assume by Lebanon you mean Hizbullah, and not The Future Movement, the only liberal democratic party besides Ayman Nour's El-Ghad party in Egypt, which both are supported by the U.S..

If I asked you to name liberal democratic parties in the Mid-East, you couldn't find many, but you certainly couldn't find any currently or recently opposed by the U.S. I'm assuming your support, because you refuse to name them, is for religious fanatics seeking election to implement a program completely antithetical to democracy.

If you only accept liberal democracy and then make gross assumptions about all other forms then there's little basis on which to have a conversation. I'm not surprised, really.

You've yet to prove that it's silly to think democracy isn't part of Islam. I do believe it can exist in the islamic world, because it does, however fledling. Democracy isn't part of Christianity either. Either you purposely misrepresent my opinions, or you just don't understand them, which might be my fault, I'm not sure. I support secular liberal parties in the mid-east because Islamism isn't democratic, it's religious supremacism, and authoritarianism.

You've yet to prove that Islamism isn't democratic... Especially when Islamist parties are currently engaged in open elections in Lebanon and Iraq.

Well, truly Shariahic is impossible, when you try it, you get a completely regressed and totalitarian society which no human being can realistically desire for long.

Shariahic? Alright. Besides that, there is no such thing as "truly Shariahic" because it has no one form of implementation. Shari'a is not a monolithic entity with a strict set of guidelines.

[Farnan]

Depends who you ask.

Christianity and Politics were not one when Christianity started. Jesus never ruled anything so thats not a good comparison.


A good comparison is with Judaism, and that leans me to say yes.

[motiv-8]

There are myriad examples of politics and Islam acting as two separate entities. Hudnreds and hundreds of years of history in Islamic states, actually. Islam and politics as its espoused today is a very, very new idea that was ironically sparked by the failure of secular governments to run their countries properly.

[removeduser_052420]

There are myriad examples of politics and Islam acting as two separate entities. Hudnreds and hundreds of years of history in Islamic states, actually. Islam and politics as its espoused today is a very, very new idea that was ironically sparked by the failure of secular governments to run their countries properly.

this. (+ rep)

[Phier]

There are myriad examples of politics and Islam acting as two separate entities. Hudnreds and hundreds of years of history in Islamic states, actually. Islam and politics as its espoused today is a very, very new idea that was ironically sparked by the failure of secular governments to run their countries properly.

And the question though doesn't change, after all secularism failed. What you need are successful secular states to support the positive.

Turkey is the only strong example I can think of currently.

[Dr. Croccer]

And the question though doesn't change, after all secularism failed. What you need are successful secular states to support the positive.

Turkey is the only strong example I can think of currently.

Turkey is a terribly run country. The military has the power to impeach any president with too much religious sympathy, which they do often. Jordan, Egypt and Pakistan are more politically stable and, frankly, better than Turkey.

[Phier]

Turkey is a terribly run country. The military has the power to impeach any president with too much religious sympathy, which they do often. Jordan, Egypt and Pakistan are more politically stable and, frankly, better than Turkey.

Turkey has a thriving gay community, try to find one in Jordan, Egypt, or Pakistan.

As a non-Muslim, if I had to live in one of those four, I'd pick Turkey precisely because the military can impeach the president if he gets all shira like

[Dr. Croccer]

Turkey has a thriving gay community, try to find one in Jordan, Egypt, or Pakistan.

...? Turkey doesn't recognise homosexual marriages; gays are banned from the military; Turkey has laws against ''public exhibitionism'' and ''offenses against public morality; ''obscene''and ''indecent'' media, etc, etc. If anything, the secular Turkish govt is more opposed to homosexuality than the average Turk.

As a non-Muslim, if I had to live in one of those four, I'd pick Turkey precisely because the military can impeach the president if he gets all shira like

Problem is, they attempt to impeach pretty much everyone with religious sympathies. A few months ago, there were rumors they were planning to impeach Erdogan, who is a practising Muslim but keeps it out of politics AFAIK. And, of course, the fact that the military has vast political power and there is discrimination seems rather appalling to me. But that's just me, really.

[motiv-8]

Turkey has a thriving gay community, try to find one in Jordan, Egypt, or Pakistan.

Aside from what Doc said (which I did not know -- interesting): Iran, incidentally, has a thriving gay community.. It's underground, like many pop culture aspects of Iranian life (unfortunately).

As a non-Muslim, if I had to live in one of those four, I'd pick Turkey precisely because the military can impeach the president if he gets all shira like

Yes, because military domination of the government is awesome.

Turkey is not the wonderful example you're claiming it is.. It takes secularism to an extreme, a militant form of oppression in which religion itself is attacked... And thus why more religion-friendly parties like AKP have gained in popularity with each military coup. Secular states can exist in the Muslim world, but Turkey is an awful exemplar.

[ELITEOFKINGWARMAN8]

No.... I be dead before that happens.

[Babur]

No.... I be dead before that happens.

did you even read Motiv's post?

[Pseudo-Intellectual]

Now all religions are generally political fron their conception (including Christianity), nor can religion ignore politics since religions are essentially a world view which can't help but encompass politics, but Islam has been very political from its birth with it resulting in the Creation of a new government and a massive empire.

But can it live with secular government, does it's scripture and ideology prevent it from doing so, maybe its built up traditions prevent is from doing so, if it is merely tradition, can these traditions be removed. Or maybe Islam is the victim of circumstance, making it very political in this day and age.

What is your view?

Please refrain from discussing whether Islam is correct of not, if it is the sibilying of Nazism or the reincarnatio of evil, how oppresive it is and whether God is real(since it is irrelevent to the question) unless it is "extremely" relevent. All I am wishing to be discussed is if it can be seperated from politics, can Muslims(which of course some do) keep there religion a private matter?

Oh yeah I of the opinion that is can, I guess I will have to give an argument why, will do so soon

Also not sure if it should go here or the political academy.

No it can never stay away of politics or any field attached with human interests.Why? Simple answer: According to Quran Mohammad (pbuh) is role model for every Muslim and he was a very great Statesman of his age and for all ages. The man who wrote book "100 Great Men" (if i am not wrong) rated Mohammad (pbuh) saying that some people were successful in the field of philosophy or ideas changing human life and some were successful in practical fields but the only man who gave his people a revolutionary idea and then he successfully attained his target was on Mohammad (pbuh).So if he is a role model and he was definitely most successful statesman or politician then Islam can't stay away of the politics.

[persianfan247]

No it can never stay away of politics or any field attached with human interests.Why? Simple answer: According to Quran Mohammad (pbuh) is role model for every Muslim and he was a very great Statesman of his age and for all ages. The man who wrote book "100 Great Men" (if i am not wrong) rated Mohammad (pbuh) saying that some people were successful in the field of philosophy or ideas changing human life and some were successful in practical fields but the only man who gave his people a revolutionary idea and then he successfully attained his target was on Mohammad (pbuh).So if he is a role model and he was definitely most successful statesman or politician then Islam can't stay away of the politics.

Of course with this point of view, you justify some peoples views that Muslims I going to take over non-Muslim countries. When I say stay away fron politics is not that it can't influence your views on politics but, that your politics or policies will not be about religion. For example, your religion can influence your view on healthcare, but it will not be about imposing your religious views on others, it would not be about Islam directly unless someone made it about Islam(e.g prosectution of Muslims fir being Muslims).

[Burnum]

No it can never stay away of politics or any field attached with human interests.Why? Simple answer: According to Quran Mohammad (pbuh) is role model for every Muslim and he was a very great Statesman of his age and for all ages. The man who wrote book "100 Great Men" (if i am not wrong) rated Mohammad (pbuh) saying that some people were successful in the field of philosophy or ideas changing human life and some were successful in practical fields but the only man who gave his people a revolutionary idea and then he successfully attained his target was on Mohammad (pbuh).So if he is a role model and he was definitely most successful statesman or politician then Islam can't stay away of the politics.

You misunderstand, brother. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was indeed a leader of men. He was indeed a Law giver and Reformer. But the Society where he was revealed Islam was an intensely Tribalistic one, unwilling too accept a single Authority.

Typical Ummon not understanding of the content of his sources. Ibn Khaldun wrote in his book:

The conditions, customs and beliefs of peoples and nations do not indefinitely follow the same pattern and adhere to a constant course. There is rather, change with days and epochs, as well as passing from one state to another... such is the law of God that has taken place with regard to His subjects

He clearly wrote that the context and meaning of Quran and certain Hadiths change over time and people.

Edit: You actually didn't answer her question. The highly politicized Islam is indeed a new Phenomenon.