God's horrible little joke?

[jsktrogdor]

Im putting my whole post in spoilers, this is all very heavy and very serious. And I want people to understand that before they start to read it. Some people here may have direct or indirect experience with the subject, or an experience similar, so try to keep things civil and cordial. Its also somewhat mature and even though there are no shock images, the simple words can be somewhat disturbing.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A stillbirth occurs when a fetus which has died, in the uterus or during labor or delivery, exits a woman's body.

I want to make sure this is understood, so I want to put an emphases on the word "exits". Just wanting to be certain that everyone puts some thought into what that means for the mother.

An in utero stillbirth does not usually present an immediate health risk to the woman and labour will usually begin spontaneously after two weeks, so the woman may choose to wait and birth her baby vaginally. After two weeks, the woman is at risk of developing blood clotting problems, and induction is recommended at this point. In many cases, the woman will find the idea of carrying the dead baby emotionally traumatizing and will elect to be induced. Cesarean birth is not recommended unless complications develop during vaginal birth.

Obviously because of my gender and age I have no real personal experience with stillbirths, so I apologize in advance if I step on anyone's toes or touch any nerves. Having said that this sounds like the most horrible traumatically wrenching experience one could ever go through. The most tragic fact seems to be that stillbirths occur commonly and sometimes at random:

Stillbirth is a relatively common, but often random, occurrence. The mean stillbirth rate in the United States is approximately 1 in 115 births, which is roughly 26,000 stillbirths each year, or on an average one every 20 minutes. In Australia,[5] England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, the rate is approximately 1 in every 200 births, in Scotland 1 in 167. (From The National Statistical Office and other sources.) Many stillbirths occur at fullterm to apparently healthy mothers, and a postmortem evaluation reveals a cause of death in only about 40% of autopsied cases.[6]

Thats just western nations with advanced health care, wiki doesnt even list statistics for the stillbirth rates in developing countries and simply says: "the stillbirth rate is much higher". So mind you this math is rough yet optimistic, with 134,000,000 infants being born per yer (as of 2007) that means that there are slightly more than 1,165,217 stillbirths globaly per year. Just shy of 1.2 million women per year who give birth to a fetus they may or may not know is already dead. 40% of just the women with western medicine will never even discover why they went through this, and be told that it just "seems to be random". Just imagine the absolute tragedy, sorrow and horrible suffering of it; dwell on that for just a moment...

Then ask yourself the question that I did when I started looking into this: What kind of god would exist and allow something so ungodly and ugly to happen to so many people who have done so little to deserves such a terrible fate as having an unborn child die within their very body and then forced to birth the corpse? Im sorry to be so blunt but that sounds like something from "The Thing" not the work of a god, at least a benevolent loving one.

If there is a god why do you follow him? He sounds to me like the most terrible being Ive ever heard of, far worse than any villain (fiction or reality). To put it simply Im just curious as to how the faithful fit this in?

[Ummon]

You seem easily terrified.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2738.htm
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2739.htm

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto Me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast the understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth, and issued out of the womb;
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And prescribed for it My decree, and set bars and doors,
11 And said: 'Thus far shalt thou come, but no further; and here shall thy proud waves be stayed'?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days began, and caused the dayspring to know its place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It is changed as clay under the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 But from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm is broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed unto thee? Or hast thou seen the gates of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou surveyed unto the breadths of the earth? Declare, if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and as for darkness, where is the place thereof;
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Thou knowest it, for thou wast then born, and the number of thy days is great!
22 Hast thou entered the treasuries of the snow, or hast thou seen the treasuries of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, or the east wind scattered upon the earth?
25 Who hath cleft a channel for the waterflood, or a way for the lightning of the thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on a land where no man is, on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground, and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? Or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? And the hoar-frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are congealed like stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season? Or canst thou guide the Bear with her sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of the heavens? Canst thou establish the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send forth lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee: 'Here we are'?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? Or who hath given understanding to the mind?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust runneth into a mass, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lioness? Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his prey, {N}
when his young ones cry unto God, and wander for lack of food?

1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? Or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?
2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? Or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?
3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young, they cast out their fruit.
4 Their young ones wax strong, they grow up in the open field; they go forth, and return not again.
5 Who hath sent out the wild ass free? Or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?
6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the salt land his dwelling-place.
7 He scorneth the tumult of the city, neither heareth he the shoutings of the driver.
8 The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
9 Will the wild-ox be willing to serve thee? Or will he abide by thy crib?
10 Canst thou bind the wild-ox with his band in the furrow? Or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
11 Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? Or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
12 Wilt thou rely on him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather the corn of thy threshing-floor?
13 The wing of the ostrich beateth joyously; but are her pinions and feathers the kindly stork's?
14 For she leaveth her eggs on the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
15 And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may trample them.
16 She is hardened against her young ones, as if they were not hers; though her labour be in vain, she is without fear;
17 Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath He imparted to her understanding.
18 When the time cometh, she raiseth her wings on high, and scorneth the horse and his rider. {P}

19 Hast thou given the horse his strength? Hast thou clothed his neck with fierceness?
20 Hast thou made him to leap as a locust? The glory of his snorting is terrible.
21 He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength; he goeth out to meet the clash of arms.
22 He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.
23 The quiver rattleth upon him, the glittering spear and the javelin.
24 He swalloweth the ground with storm and rage; neither believeth he that it is the voice of the horn.
25 As oft as he heareth the horn he saith: 'Ha, ha!' and he smelleth the battle afar off, {N}
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
26 Doth the hawk soar by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?
27 Doth the vulture mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
28 She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the stronghold.
29 From thence she spieth out the prey; her eyes behold it afar off.
30 Her young ones also suck up blood; and where the slain are, there is she.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...89&version=NIV

Psalm 89 (New International Version)

Psalm 89
A maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite. [a]
1 I will sing of the LORD's great love forever;
with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known through all generations.
2 I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
that you established your faithfulness in heaven itself.

3 You said, "I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
I have sworn to David my servant,

4 'I will establish your line forever
and make your throne firm through all generations.' "
Selah

5 The heavens praise your wonders, O LORD,
your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones.

6 For who in the skies above can compare with the LORD ?
Who is like the LORD among the heavenly beings?

7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;
he is more awesome than all who surround him.

8 O LORD God Almighty, who is like you?
You are mighty, O LORD, and your faithfulness surrounds you.

9 You rule over the surging sea;
when its waves mount up, you still them.

10 You crushed Rahab like one of the slain;
with your strong arm you scattered your enemies.

11 The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth;
you founded the world and all that is in it.

12 You created the north and the south;
Tabor and Hermon sing for joy at your name.

13 Your arm is endued with power;
your hand is strong, your right hand exalted.

14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne;
love and faithfulness go before you.

15 Blessed are those who have learned to acclaim you,
who walk in the light of your presence, O LORD.

16 They rejoice in your name all day long;
they exult in your righteousness.

17 For you are their glory and strength,
and by your favor you exalt our horn. [b]

18 Indeed, our shield [c] belongs to the LORD,
our king to the Holy One of Israel.

19 Once you spoke in a vision,
to your faithful people you said:
"I have bestowed strength on a warrior;
I have exalted a young man from among the people.

20 I have found David my servant;
with my sacred oil I have anointed him.

21 My hand will sustain him;
surely my arm will strengthen him.

22 No enemy will subject him to tribute;
no wicked man will oppress him.

23 I will crush his foes before him
and strike down his adversaries.

24 My faithful love will be with him,
and through my name his horn [d] will be exalted.

25 I will set his hand over the sea,
his right hand over the rivers.

26 He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
my God, the Rock my Savior.'

27 I will also appoint him my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.

29 I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.

30 "If his sons forsake my law
and do not follow my statutes,

31 if they violate my decrees
and fail to keep my commands,

32 I will punish their sin with the rod,
their iniquity with flogging;

33 but I will not take my love from him,
nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.

34 I will not violate my covenant
or alter what my lips have uttered.

35 Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
and I will not lie to David-

36 that his line will continue forever
and his throne endure before me like the sun;

37 it will be established forever like the moon,
the faithful witness in the sky."
Selah

38 But you have rejected, you have spurned,
you have been very angry with your anointed one.

39 You have renounced the covenant with your servant
and have defiled his crown in the dust.

40 You have broken through all his walls
and reduced his strongholds to ruins.

41 All who pass by have plundered him;
he has become the scorn of his neighbors.

42 You have exalted the right hand of his foes;
you have made all his enemies rejoice.

43 You have turned back the edge of his sword
and have not supported him in battle.

44 You have put an end to his splendor
and cast his throne to the ground.

45 You have cut short the days of his youth;
you have covered him with a mantle of shame.
Selah

46 How long, O LORD ? Will you hide yourself forever?
How long will your wrath burn like fire?

47 Remember how fleeting is my life.
For what futility you have created all men!

48 What man can live and not see death,
or save himself from the power of the grave [e] ?
Selah

49 O Lord, where is your former great love,
which in your faithfulness you swore to David?

50 Remember, Lord, how your servant has [f] been mocked,
how I bear in my heart the taunts of all the nations,

51 the taunts with which your enemies have mocked, O LORD,
with which they have mocked every step of your anointed one.

52 Praise be to the LORD forever!
Amen and Amen.

[jsktrogdor]

You seem easily terrified.

I'd heard the word before but didnt know what it meant till recently. Now that I do I regret learning, its the saddest thing ive ever heard of.

[Ummon]

I'd heard the word before but didnt know what it meant till recently. Now that I do I regret learning, its the saddest thing ive ever heard of.

That saddest thing you have ever heard.

There were others, much worse. Concentration camps for example.

[jsktrogdor]

That saddest thing you have ever heard.

There were others, much worse. Concentration camps for example.

9 million people being gased by other people out of hate and intolerance is super terrible. 1.2 million fetus's which according to most of my countries religious population "are people too", being murdered by none other than god himself annually is a bit worse in my opinion... if we're following the god hypothesis that is. The equation without god equals a minor margin of error in our complex biology. That same equation with god equals an annual genocide which has been reoccurring since the first man and will continue every day till man stops reproducing...

And maybe we should decide this right away... is a fetus a person or not? Because Im not going to allow it to be a person when your talking about humans aborting it (which I should say im undecided about). And yet suddenly nothing more than cells and tissue when we're talking about god aborting it.

[cfmonkey45]

9 million people being gased by other people out of hate and intolerance is super terrible. 1.2 million fetus's which according to most of my countries religious population "are people too", being murdered by none other than god himself annually is a bit worse in my opinion... if we're following the god hypothesis that is. The equation without god equals a minor margin of error in our complex biology. That same equation with god equals an annual genocide which has been reoccurring since the first man and will continue every day till man stops reproducing...

And maybe we should decide this right away... is a fetus a person or not? Because Im not going to allow it to be a person when your talking about humans aborting it (which I should say im undecided about). And yet suddenly nothing more than cells and tissue when we're talking about god aborting it.

Technically, God kills 100% of all human beings because he allows them to die.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Then ask yourself the question that I did when I started looking into this: What kind of god would exist and allow something so ungodly and ugly to happen to so many people who have done so little to deserves such a terrible fate as having an unborn child die within their very body and then forced to birth the corpse? Im sorry to be so blunt but that sounds like something from "The Thing" not the work of a god, at least a benevolent loving one.

One with a really ugly sense of humor, but really all the theist guys will tell you that these stillbirths do not happen because of god but because of nature doing it's work blah, blah, blah(which still contradicts itself since god creates nature)

If there is a god why do you follow him? He sounds to me like the most terrible being Ive ever heard of, far worse than any villain (fiction or reality). To put it simply Im just curious as to how the faithful fit this in?

If there's a sentient god that actually give s acrap about our problems and stuff, I'm quite sure he's laughing his/her/it ass off at our murders, genocides and plagues.

[Copperknickers II]

Stillbirth is not particularly horrible, it is a shame and it can be traumatising but i think you are overreacting a little. Thousands of ova are not born, that does not make them dead. Stillbirth is the same, it is not actually alive when it dies as it has not exited the woman yet.

[Ummon]

The key was: you are judging God as if He was a man.

God is omnipotent. That means: unbound.

[jsktrogdor]

The key was: you are judging God as if He was a man.

God is omnipotent. That means: unbound.

The latin roots "omni-potent" literally mean "all-power". So because of his power god is unbound from any morality?

Allowed to trample man like an ant because he created the ant?

Parents arnt allowed to torture, maim and kill their own children simply because they created them.

Are we all nothing more than ants in a farm helpless at the whim of the giant eye on the other side of the glass?

Are we supposed to suffer more happily then for its enjoyment?

Religion is so depressing.

You would think that something as abominbal as stillbirth would be the work of satan but it is the omnipotent god who allows it to continue and to his very own children no less.

[Desperado †]

The key was: you are judging God as if He was a man.

God is omnipotent. That means: unbound.

Ah, that good old excuse that means we can't question him.

[My Favorite Martian]

Somewhere theodicy and negative theology are separeted by this question. It depends how you ask to tell you into which context you have placed your question. When the question is a theodicy then the answer is natural (philosphical), when the question is a negative theology, then the answer is a religious act (or supernatural). The religious position lacks in that sense a clear answer what you can see in Job or Kohelet but results in an appeal (to fear God, to follow the mitzvot among others). Voltaire's Candide or Leibniz' Theodicy offer a kind of an explanation (optimism as a civil virtue, the best of all worlds, etc.).

->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz

[Ummon]

Ah, that good old excuse that means we can't question him.

You missed the meaning completely. You can question Him all you like: the thing is, it will matter only in very special circumstances.

[SigniferOne]

The key was: you are judging God as if He was a man.

God is omnipotent. That means: unbound.

God is not unbound from justice. Divinity is the source of justice, and has always been. In fact that's why people follow Abrahamic religion, as the ultimate basis for morals. If you divorce morals from divinity then you're undercutting your own case, and I don't see what anybody has said here that would demand you going so far. Concentration camps are not God's fault, and natural disasters are not either. The whole "problem of evi" is far less of a problem if people properly define things according to their categories.

[bushbush]

God is not unbound from justice. Divinity is the source of justice, and has always been. In fact that's why people follow Abrahamic religion, as the ultimate basis for morals. If you divorce morals from divinity then you're undercutting your own case, and I don't see what anybody has said here that would demand you going so far. Concentration camps are not God's fault, and natural disasters are not either. The whole "problem of evi" is far less of a problem if people properly define things according to their categories.

exactly, there were no justice before any abrahamic religion, no justice in areas people don't follow this religion and no justice for people who aren't religious at all.

[Tankbuster]

God is not unbound from justice. Divinity is the source of justice, and has always been. In fact that's why people follow Abrahamic religion, as the ultimate basis for morals.

This 'ultimate basis for morals' didn't stop the followers of these books to trade slaves for about 1900 years, commit genocides, be racists and slave-traders, conduct horrible wars amongst each other and against other religions, be greedy and overly ambitious, and generally exhibit horrific behaviour for centuries (from a modern viewpoint, of course).
The lack of this 'ultimate basis for morals' also didn't stop the Greeks and Romans, or others, to develop relatively prosperous societies with functioning judiciary systems and a flourishing culture.
There are two rather large flies in your soup right there, which are rarely accounted for. So this assertion that 'divinity is the source of justice' is not just tedious and simplistic, but also unsupported and quite likely wrong.

If you divorce morals from divinity then you're undercutting your own case, and I don't see what anybody has said here that would demand you going so far.

Thank you for illustrating the points about emotional attachment I made in the other thread ('Why Do Religious People Insist On Taking Offence...'). Divorcing morality from divinity is entirely possible, and is what the civilised world has been doing repeatedly for a very long time.

Our ancestors didn't like being killed, and at some point they started living in groups and making sure that those who did murder others were to be expelled from the group. Later they discovered that making (trade, marriage,...) deals was fun, but having people break deals and agreements was less fun, so they agreed that those who indulged in that behaviour would be punished. The same thing went for stealing, lying,... and a dozen other things.
Now, what exactly is wrong about this reasoning as a basis for morality? In fact, look closely at the evolution from primitive socities to modern ones and you'll see the moral codes and laws expanding (and often changing) depending on the structure and situation of the society, and the gradual improvement of systems of law. What the supernatural has to do with this perfectly logical and natural evolution is truly beyond me; it seems that this obsession with the link of justice with divinity is actually an obstacle for explanation rather than an real explanation.

Concentration camps are not God's fault, and natural disasters are not either. The whole "problem of evi" is far less of a problem if people properly define things according to their categories.

I gave my thoughts about the Problem of Innocent Suffering a while back in an essay I wrote here. It's largely a consequence of not wanting to accept naturalistic explanations for naturalistic phenomena (which is what religion often is); it forces one to view everything from the suprantural standpoint. Otherwise you're, well, totally cherry-picking.
Other fun facts about evil is that (i) there's a lot of it and (ii) it's not evenly distributed. Not only do millions of babies still die every year from horribly infections from micro-organisms and hunger or draught, we were able to stop millions more from dying by developing better medicines and better healthcare systems. We were also able to start predicting the occurrence of certain natural disasters, which all mounts to a world that has considerably less 'evil' in it than ever before.
Geez, when you look at it this way, it seems like God is not involved at all

[Tankbuster]

[Double post, please delete]

[Ummon]

God is not unbound from justice. Divinity is the source of justice, and has always been. In fact that's why people follow Abrahamic religion, as the ultimate basis for morals. If you divorce morals from divinity then you're undercutting your own case, and I don't see what anybody has said here that would demand you going so far. Concentration camps are not God's fault, and natural disasters are not either. The whole "problem of evi" is far less of a problem if people properly define things according to their categories.

God is unbound from anything: included human concept of justice. This doesn't mean that God is not supreme justice and love.

[Nimthill]

God is unbound from anything: included human concept of justice. This doesn't mean that God is not supreme justice and love.

He also seems to be above his own concept of justice...

[Blau&Gruen]

Once upon the time, there had been two Rabbis who came together every Friday evening when Shabbes begins to discuss the question whether there were activities allowed on this day. They studied the scriptures and discussed and discussed without reaching a conclusive result. But one day one of them had a remarkable idea that may helped to solve the question.
He said: "Well, there is one thing that can be done on Shabbes. You know what?"
His friend looked up with surprise. "What do you have in mind?"
He said: "We could prepare and cook an imaginary calf. Because as the calf is imaginary we won't break any of the commandments, not the one related of doing no work on Shabbes, not that of not to light a fire."
His friend blinked towards him: "It means there is one thing that can't be forbidden, not even on Shabbes, and that is to use our imagination."

Free after Emanuel Lévinas in one of his Talmud lectures