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    spartan117's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    What Thatcher and Gorbachev really thought when the Berlin Wall came down



    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6829716.ece

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    History looks far less heroic when you find out how it happens. The fall of the Berlin Wall is one of those monumental events that heralded the collapse of communism, the end of the Cold War and the reunification not only of Germany but of a Europe split for 40 years by Soviet tanks.

    As we look back 20 years, we think of it as an event planned, plotted and controlled by statesmen, generals and diplomats. In fact, it was a spontaneous and chaotic reaction to events that no one — in the Stasi headquarters, in Western governments or in the Kremlin — foresaw or knew how to handle.

    I was in West Berlin at the time. I remember the tensions, the rumours, the wild excitement, the dash across no man’s land of ecstatic East Berliners. I saw the bewildered faces of the Stasi border guards who stood around uneasily under the Brandenburg Gate while hundreds of West Berliners danced atop the Wall. And I remember wondering what on earth they made of it over on that side. And, what, miles away in the chilly east, could the Kremlin possibly be thinking.

    Now we know. The Kremlin was utterly bemused. It had long lost control of events, largely because Mikhail Gorbachev had refused to step in. Six days before the Wall fell the Politburo was floundering to keep up. Things were changing by the hour. Half a million demonstrators were preparing to gather on the streets of Berlin, the KGB chief announced. Would Egon Krenz, the new East German party boss, survive, Mr Gorbachev wondered. And if East Germany collapsed, how could he explain this to ordinary Russians? How could Moscow keep the country going without help from Bonn?

    Eduard Shevardnadze, the reforming Foreign Minister, came up with the best idea. Why don’t we take down the Wall ourselves? His KGB colleague quickly saw an objection: it would be difficult for the East Germans, who put up the Wall, if we then tore it down. And Mr Gorbachev saw another problem: without the Wall, West Germany would buy up the East lock, stock and barrel.

    He also pointed to another difficulty: other Western leaders didn’t want reunification. They couldn’t say so, as this was Nato policy. Instead, they were trying to manoeuvre the Kremlin into vetoing the idea, he told his colleagues.

    He should know. Two months earlier Margaret Thatcher had arrived in the Kremlin on a mission: to halt reunification. She trusted Mr Gorbachev. She trusted him to keep her secrets. She asked him to stop the tape recorders and the notetakers. Then she began. “The reunification of Germany is not in the interests of Britain and Western Europe,” she said. Forget what you have heard or read in Nato communiqués. “We don’t want a united Germany.” It would lead to a change in Europe’s postwar borders. “We cannot allow that, because such development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.”

    Unfortunately for her, the notetakers did not forget what she said. They performed a service to history. We now know that 1989 was almost as traumatic for the West as it was for the East.

    Mrs Thatcher and François Mitterrand could not understand what the Russians were up to. The French especially were horrified. Why had Moscow not done anything to prevent the prospect of a united Germany? Mitterrand and the French Establishment, Mr Gorbachev’s colleagues reported, were having nightmares. One, Jacques Attali, even said that he would go and live on Mars if unification occurred.

    But Mr Gorbachev was determined not to fall back on the old response of a wounded Russian bear. He was not going to send in the troops to prop up the old communist dinosaurs. He thought Eric Honecker, East Germany’s unbending autocrat, an “:wub:”. And he naively believed that, if Russia were to allow the demonstrators to overthrow the old dictators, the peoples of Eastern Europe would be grateful.

    His naivety is understandable. Vladimir Bukovsky, the Soviet dissident who first obtained some of the key Kremlin documents, said the problem was that the Soviet leadership never really knew what the masses thought. There was no free press, the bosses believed their own propaganda and the KGB only reported what they thought the Kremlin wanted to hear.

    When it all turned out differently, the response in Russia was as chaotic and bewildered as it was across the Continent. Events were driving the crowds on to the streets. And communist parties were left with no response, no plan and no authority.

    That is what worried Mrs Thatcher most. She was all for freedom. But she liked order, she liked predictability and she liked institutions such as Nato, in which Britain could play a commanding role. The deal at Yalta was that Russia had its sphere of influence and the Western allies had theirs. And that deal had provided — at least for the West — 40 years of stability and prosperity.

    The deal had not brought prosperity to the East. And Mr Gorbachev was committed to change. He knew that Moscow could no longer afford to prop up its deeply indebted allies. He had no time for the rigidities of East Germany, the brutalities of Ceausescu in Romania or the corruption of Zhivkov’s Bulgaria. A deep streak of humanity comes through in the picture of Mr Gorbachev revealed in these records. The man who grew up in Stalin’s Russia was determined to end the Stalinism in his own backyard.

    He and his colleagues were flattered by the enthusiasm with which he was greeted abroad (“in contrast to the worthless treatment he gets from his own people”, a Politburo aide noted in his diary). The Kremlin must have been amazed at the shouts of “Gorby, Gorby” that rang out throughout East Berlin at the fateful 40th anniversary cebebration. Moscow probably thought it could have it both ways: earn the gratitude of the East by liberalising the system and the gratitude of the West for promoting democracy and human rights. In fact, it reaped only mistrust and suspicion from the leaders on both sides.

    It all changed after the Wall came down. Gorbachev began to get cold feet. He was furious at what he saw as triumphalism in the West, especially in Bonn. He complained that America was trying to force “Western values” on the Warsaw Pact. He savaged Helmut Kohl, the German Chancellor, for pushing the pace on reunification. Things were moving too fast for him as well as Mrs Thatcher. But that’s history. Events have a chaos and a momentum that no one can control.


    United Germany might allow another Hitler, Mitterrand told Thatcher



    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6828556.ece

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    President Mitterrand of France warned Margaret Thatcher privately that a reunited Germany might “make even more ground than Hitler had” only a few weeks after the fall of the Berlin Wall, newly declassified documents reveal.

    In papers due to be published by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office tomorrow, after a year of deliberation by Whitehall officials, the scale of Anglo-French fears on German reunification is laid bare.

    At a lunch at the Élysée Palace on January 20, 1990, Charles, now Lord, Powell, the then foreign affairs adviser to Mrs Thatcher reports in a memo that Mr Mitterrand talked about how reunification would cause the re-emergence of the “bad” Germans who dominated Europe.

    According to the memo, Mr Mitterrand said at one point that if Helmut Kohl, the Chancellor of West Germany at the time, were to get his way, a unified Germany could win more ground than Hitler ever did and that Europe would have to bear the consequences.


    Mr Mitterrand warned Mrs Thatcher that if Germany were to expand territorially, Europe would be back to where it had been one year before the First World War.

    The Berlin Wall fell in November 1989 and Germany was not formally reunited until October 1990. The private meetings between the then Prime Minister and Mr Mitterrand followed Mr Kohl’s ten-point plan for reunification.

    Mrs Thatcher’s opposition to reunification, and her disagreement with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office over the issue, is also revealed in the 500 papers. One document refers to her expressing horror on hearing incorrect reports that the members of the Bundestag in Bonn sang Deutschland über alles to celebrate the fall of the Wall.

    In another document she is reported as finding the views of Sir Christopher Mallaby, the British Ambassador to Bonn, “alarming”, expressing astonishment that he appeared to welcome the prospect of a united Germany.

    The documents show that diplomats from the Foreign Commonwealth Office realised as early as January 1989 that German reunification was a possibility. After the Wall fell they feared that Mrs Thatcher was adopting a stance so shrill that no one was listening to her.

    The decision to make the papers public now (Britain normally issues secret official documents only after 30 years) is being viewed as an attempt to show that British diplomats were positive about reunification in the early stages.


    I dont think this has been posted yet. Were the concerns of Thatcher and President Mitterrand realistic? I will think of some other questions at a later time but for now, I suppose, post any thoughts on the articles.

    Edit: Spoiler text easier to read.
    Last edited by spartan117; September 11, 2009 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    There always had been fears that Germany would rise up and become an expansionist power again. The Soviets paniced at laws in the 50s and 60s which helped restore West Germany as an economic and military power.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
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    Tränen sind denn nicht genug.''

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  3. #3

    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    There always had been fears that Germany would rise up and become an expansionist power again. The Soviets paniced at laws in the 50s and 60s which helped restore West Germany as an economic and military power.
    So that's why they build all the nukes! The nuclear arms race was a sad misunderstanding between the USA and the USSR!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Interesting.
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by The Noble Lord View Post
    Interesting.
    Very.

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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Might be unknown among regular people, but this has been common knowledge for years in international relations studies. Ofcourse France did not want Germany reunited, if only because a united Germany is a bigger economy than France inside the EU.

    Gorbachev wasnt the only one to hate Kohl for pressing German unification through by the way. The "Heimatsvertriebene" (former Eastern Germans, "Eastern" meaning from now Polish and Russian-annexed parts of Germany) were screwed over during the elections around reunification. Kohl promised before being elected that he would plead for the Germans from Eastern Germany (numbering in the millions) to get some sort of reparations or return of their native lands from Poland and Russia. Instead, after being elected Kohl signed a treaty with Poland that stated the present Oder-Neisse line was the border between Germany and Poland. Up to 1991, this was still officially not the case. Kohl did this just to push unification through.
    Last edited by Lysimachos11; September 11, 2009 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos11 View Post
    Might be unknown among regular people, but this has been common knowledge for years in international relations studies.
    I think it should be common for people who have followed the events in 1989/90 leading to the unification, so known for anyone interested in politics and older than 35 years, in particular Germans.

    I don't think that anyone in Paris or London seriously had any worries on German "ambitions" of whatsoever, that is, unless he or she had been frozen for the 40 years leading to re-unification. Given the habbit of Margarte "No" Thatcher to obstructe anything important in Europe throughout the 80s, and the notorious fears of the French government to lose the status as the European hegemonial power (what France actually did lose already in the 19th Century, but that's a different story), it was, and still should not be, surprising that the hardest enemies of re-unifactions were to be found there.

    Russia is in fact a different story. Despite Gorbachev having some preconditions, such as not allowing a reunited Germany to become part of the Nato, (which all were not fullfilled BTW) he never seriously obstructed reunifaction. This would have been first of all the result of the traditionally excellent relationships between the Kohl administration and Gorbachev, promised massive economic help from Germany, and the full support Kohl had from Washington.

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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by konny View Post
    I think it should be common for people who have followed the events in 1989/90 leading to the unification, so known for anyone interested in politics and older than 35 years, in particular Germans.
    Forgot about that, I was too young to understand what was going on back then, but yeah any mature person back then that was interested probably knows. I wish I had been older so I could have consciously witnessed such a turning point in history...
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos11 View Post
    Instead, after being elected Kohl signed a treaty with Poland that stated the present Oder-Neisse line was the border between Germany and Poland. Up to 1991, this was still officially not the case. Kohl did this just to push unification through.
    Was there any possibility doing otherwise? I doubt Poland would have given a handful of ground to Germany.
    Kohl maybe pursued interest which were real.
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    Was there any possibility doing otherwise? I doubt Poland would have given a handful of ground to Germany.
    Kohl maybe pursued interest which were real.
    At the time they may not have been inclined to return the territories. But had Germany made a case internationally they may have received some of the lands back. It was also not purely about interests of the German state, ordinary Germans were robbed of their lands and property which is illegal under any law I can think of. It's been a while since I studied the subject, but it could be that the Soviet Union would have given some support to return of German lands, considering German-Soviet/Russian relations are usually more important than Russo-Polish ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos11 View Post
    At the time they may not have been inclined to return the territories. But had Germany made a case internationally they may have received some of the lands back.
    It is, and already was back in the 80s, consensus amongst the leading German parties to not actively demand any lands back from Poland or Russia (nor France, Belgium or Denmark BTW). The topic has been kept somewhat open until the 2+4 Treaties with excuse of the unsolved legal status of Germany after the war; but this was mostly done with regard of the unions of the expelled (mostly descendants of the actualy expelled Germans) that were traditional supporters of the conservatives, i.e. Kohl's party.

    Nevertheless, returning any lands to Germany was not part of the active political agenda of the leading German parties in the 80s, leave alone today. So the sollution of that problem, that in fact wasn't really one for the Kohl administration, was a thing that could easyly be trade for support in re-unifaction.

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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Seems like it's rational, or at least I understand why the Russians especially would worry over such things. It's not as if the Germans in WWII didn't wreak a terrible toll on the Russians.

  13. #13

    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Nothing new here, I hate how the media makes it out like it is. It's not really surprising to know that France and Britain would be wary about a reunified Germany, considering it twice caused massive wars that century. It doesn't make Thatcher any less a fighter against Communism, she was just pragmatic in knowing the whole Soviet edifice was crumbling down and didn't want anything dangerous to come out of it.

    Incidentially the transition of Europe from two blocs into one has gone pretty well with the exception of Yugoslavia, who were always a third party in the Cold War anyways.

  14. #14

    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    [QUOTE=Londinium;5946805]
    Nothing new here, I hate how the media makes it out like it is. It's not really surprising to know that France and Britain would be wary about a reunified Germany, considering it twice caused massive wars that century. It doesn't make Thatcher any less a fighter against Communism, she was just pragmatic in knowing the whole Soviet edifice was crumbling down and didn't want anything dangerous to come out of it.
    Germany didnt caused WW1. WW1 was a serie of diplomatic events countries declaring war on each other after the incedent at Saraevo.
    In fact Germany wasnt even the first country to declar war. WW1 began because of main impearlistic countries of Europe GB, France, Germany and the oldies Russia and Austria-Hungary that were tring to keep their european empire intact with so much nationalistic unrest. Germany wanted to be a colonial power and in sense replace Britain. Britain wanted to defend their empire and France wanted to retake the terrotories that lost in 1871 and get some payback. So Germany isnt alone to carry the blame the blame it on Germans policy was a thing invented by Allied Propaganda.
    As for WW2 not doubt Germany was the main country and reason that star the war but coulnt do it alone if wanst for the Soviet Union I sinceraly doubt that Poland would be invaded if France,GB,USSR and Poland were allies how Germany could expand? Also dont forget that Hitler didnt have plans to invaded the West he wanted to expand to the East France and GB declaration of war camed as suprise he tougth they would remain neutral like when Germans took the Sudetland.
    Incidentially the transition of Europe from two blocs into one has gone pretty well with the exception of Yugoslavia, who were always a third party in the Cold War anyways.
    Well it has some exceptions like Bessarabia.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Wow, a great read. And it's fun to see the powers that be totally bewildered and that people power actually can work.
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    spartan117's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: 'Leaked Kremlin documents show that history makes fools of us, especially our leaders'

    Honestly, I would have much rather have simply posted the article for it being interesting to me. However I felt I had to post some sort of question as to initiate some discussion in fitting with forum rules.

    And as such, thought of some near random question as to start the discussion. I was not really concerned with whether or not people thought if the concerns were 'realistic.' lol.

    Although I was a bit amused, I would imagine that there should have been discussion before hand about what should occur in a situation where Russia abandons East Germany before.

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