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  1. #1

    Default Its offical we have no clue.

    Its really ridiculous that politicians have done such a great job that our troops don't even have a clear objective anymore.Seriously if people would just wake up were not even trying to win this war.

    WASHINGTON -- As the Obama administration and Congress begin a heated debate about how many more American troops to send to Afghanistan, military observers, Soldiers on the ground there and some top Pentagon officials are warning that dispatching even tens of thousands more Soldiers and Marines might not ensure success.

    Some even fear that deploying more U.S. troops, especially in the wake of a U.S. airstrike last week that killed and wounded scores of Afghan civilians, would convince more Afghans that the Americans are occupiers rather than allies and relieve the pressure on the Afghan government to improve its own security forces.

    The heart of the problem, Soldiers fighting in Afghanistan and some officials in Washington told McClatchy Newspapers, is that neither Barack Obama's White House nor the Pentagon has clearly defined America's mission in Afghanistan. As a result, some Soldiers in the field said, they aren't sure what their objectives are.

    Current officials and military officers who are wary of escalation refused to speak on the record because they aren't authorized to talk to the media and because doing so would be hazardous to their careers.

    "General McChrystal's latest assessment reportedly indicates that the situation in Afghanistan is 'serious,' " said former deputy secretary of state and Pentagon official Richard Armitage, referring to Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the U.S. military commander in Afghanistan. "President Obama needs to define, more clearly than he has so far, what our country's objectives in Afghanistan are and his strategy for achieving them. Without that, it's impossible to assess whether the mission requires additional troops."

    The administration's stated goals in Afghanistan have ranged from eliminating the threat posed by al-Qaida - which is based in neighboring Pakistan, not in Afghanistan - and building a stable democratic state, depending on what administration official is speaking and when.

    On Thursday, Defense Secretary Robert Gates attempted to define the administration's strategy. He said that before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Taliban not only provided al-Qaida refuge, but also "cooperated and collaborated" with the terrorist group. Because of that, he said, the U.S. must ensure that a stable government exists in Afghanistan so the Taliban - and ultimately al-Qaida - can't return.

    The situation in Afghanistan, including last month's still-inconclusive election and McChrystal's review, have made it hard for the president to speak out more definitively, said Michael O'Hanlon, a senior fellow at the center-left Brookings Institution who was in Afghanistan for the August election.

    Obama must do so soon, however, O'Hanlon said: "He can't expect the country to continue to tolerate a mission that he himself has not explained."

    Obama may explain it soon, although the timing and format haven't been decided, administration officials said.

    His choices are problematic. A withdrawal from Afghanistan would bring disastrous foreign policy consequences, but adding troops is no guarantee of success.

    Although recent polls have found public support for the war in Afghanistan ebbing, aides said the president is committed to the effort but aware of the need to avoid wading into a quagmire.

    "Momentum is a terrible way to make decisions," said a senior White House official who requested anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. Obama will avoid decisions that "will bind the country forever," he said.

    Obama, of course, inherited a war without a strategy. George H.W. Bush turned his back on Afghanistan after the Soviet Union withdrew; Bill Clinton never confronted the growing al-Qaida threat there despite a series of terrorist attacks; and George W. Bush chose to invade Iraq rather than concentrate on the post-Sept. 11 war in Afghanistan.

    The White House is due to send a series of benchmarks for measuring progress in Afghanistan to Congress by Sept. 24, where support for the effort is eroding among liberal Democrats and even some conservatives.

    Officials, however, concede that no amount of additional American force can by itself ensure success.

    Even the limited goal of eradicating al-Qaida requires substantially more cooperation from Pakistan than the country has provided so far - or than U.S. military and intelligence officials and diplomats privately say they expect amid mounting anti-Americanism there.

    U.S. officials say the electronic components for improvised explosives are being assembled and smuggled in from Pakistan, and cross-border infiltration continues unchecked, including now into northern Afghanistan. Mullah Mohammed Omar and other Taliban leaders based in Quetta, Pakistan, and allied with al-Qaida remain free to direct the insurgency, and other insurgents continue to shuttle young Islamist recruits from radical mosques and schools in Pakistan to training camps near the Afghan border and then into Afghanistan.

    Critics worry that a likely middle course - sending more American troops to train and expand the Afghan security forces - can't assure success, either, because those forces are controlled by a government that's riddled with corruption and more feared than respected by its people. Widespread allegations of fraud in last month's presidential election have only compounded the problem, officials conceded.

    While analogies between Vietnam and Afghanistan are overdrawn, O'Hanlon said, there's one similarity: the need for a strong local partner, which the United States didn't have in South Vietnam.

    "We're in a heap of trouble if we don't have a good local partner," he said.

    To complicate matters, several senior officials said, curbing drug trafficking, rooting out official corruption, improving women's rights and creating a central government that's widely accepted as legitimate are all political, not military, objectives.

    The corruption extends from police who resell U.S.-supplied gasoline and water, to mid-level Afghan military commanders who siphon off money that's intended to purchase food for their troops, to the top of the Karzai government, and it denied ordinary Afghans the opportunity to have their grievances addressed, except by local Taliban kangaroo courts and shadow governments. Many Afghans have all but given up on corrupt government security officials, instead turning to local warlords and Taliban leaders to help them survive.

    U.S. officers in Afghanistan said Afghan security forces also are helping smuggle weapons the Taliban use to attack U.S.-led troops from Pakistan into Afghanistan. In addition, said a senior Afghan officer, weapons and ammunition supplied to the Afghan army and police are being stolen and sold to the Taliban.

    "There is great corruption in the Ministry of Defense," the officer said. "Everyone is looking for money."

    Despite the Obama administration's decision to send 17,500 more troops and 4,000 trainers this year, violence is at its highest level of the nearly eight-year war. Attacks against coalition forces are at their highest, too, with at least 308 troops killed in 2009, which last month became the deadliest year of the war.

    Military leaders and some in the administration and Congress concede that the situation is deteriorating and that the options aren't appealing. However, they argue, doing nothing would be worse.

    O'Hanlon said the steady drumbeat of bad news, while real, has overshadowed other factors.

    "In the places where we have added troops, there is at least some hopefulness," he said. He also said that not all the additional troops, civilian resources and strategy changes that Obama approved in March have come fully into play.

    "I tend to believe in the strategy," O'Hanlon said. "But I think it's important to acknowledge that ... even if we do everything right, we could still fail."

    In an interview last week with Washington Post columnist Michael Gerson, U.S. Central Command commander Gen. David Petraeus said: "I don't think anyone can guarantee that it will work out even if we apply a lot more resources. But it won't work out if we don't."

    Officials who've read McChrystal's assessment say it doesn't ask for more troops directly, which is expected in a separate document later this month.

    However, they said, the U.S. commander spells out a dire scenario that all but says he needs more troops. The Afghan forces need more training, the assessment says, without saying how many; the mission needs more civilians; and the coalition needs to move its forces out of remote outposts and toward population centers.

    The request could be for as many as 45,000 troops; a compromise would send about 21,000 more. There are now 62,000 U.S. troops and 39,000 NATO forces in Afghanistan.

    The addition of more troops, some U.S. experts and officers said, will mean more targets for the Taliban to attack. That in turn will likely produce more civilian casualties, which would fuel greater disdain for the U.S.-led military presence and the Kabul government, creating more recruits for the insurgents.

    The additional U.S. and allied casualties also would produce political consequences in Washington and other NATO capitals, which are already confronting rising popular opposition to the war. Those tensions in turn could further strain the already troubled trans-Atlantic alliance.


  2. #2

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Wth is Petraeus and Kilcullen? Sorry but Petraeus is clearly more valuable and needed on the ground running things then being head of CENTCOM. And when did we stop listening to the super aussie Kilcullen? This reeks of Iraq, being completely aimless and drifting all over the place until Bush stumbled across Petraeus/Kilcullen and Gates. So wth isnt Obama doing what works? He seems to have no interest in Afghanistan.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    He said he would pull troops out of Iraq by 2009 and here he is saying it
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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digbert View Post
    He said he would pull troops out of Iraq by 2009 and here he is saying it
    Did you even listen to the video mate, he clearly said PHASED WITHDRAWAL. That does not mean he would pull the troops out all at once, thats the that the GOP has been spreading. Then a guy ask "how can we leave now" Once again Obama never said "well we just tell all our troops to pack up and jump on the next plane home."


    @the OP: Afganistan couldnt be won by the Russians who fought it with a military mindset with twice the men we have now. It was lost by the British who had a huge global Empire in a time before suicide bombers. Perhaps sending millions of men just isnt the answer. The answer has always been Aid and Development.

    Think about who we are fighting. Its not the people of Afganistan or Iraq, its the Insurgents like the Taliban who prey on the poor and innocent huddled in villages. These villages are what we are aiming at, to disrupt the drug flow going into the pockets of the Taliban and to bring up the standard of living for these poor villagers so they dont have to turn to the Taliban.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; September 08, 2009 at 08:29 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Wth is Petraeus and Kilcullen? Sorry but Petraeus is clearly more valuable and needed on the ground running things then being head of CENTCOM. And when did we stop listening to the super aussie Kilcullen? This reeks of Iraq, being completely aimless and drifting all over the place until Bush stumbled across Petraeus/Kilcullen and Gates. So wth isnt Obama doing what works? He seems to have no interest in Afghanistan.
    The last Democrat who understood how to use the military was FDR. Obama has absolutely no clue in this sort of thing, nor will most of his advisors being of the same cloth. I do have SOME hope though as failing in Afghanistan will be another nail in 2012, so they will have a lot of pressure to go with those who know rather than the left wing idiology.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzig View Post
    Wth is Petraeus and Kilcullen? Sorry but Petraeus is clearly more valuable and needed on the ground running things then being head of CENTCOM. And when did we stop listening to the super aussie Kilcullen? This reeks of Iraq, being completely aimless and drifting all over the place until Bush stumbled across Petraeus/Kilcullen and Gates. So wth isnt Obama doing what works? He seems to have no interest in Afghanistan.
    Kilcullen , the Viking/Irish super Australian? He is in Australia promoting his new book recieving plaudits from journalists.

    I think that they do not want it to work because they want to use conflicts in Afghanistan to de-stabilise Pakistan. Pakistan is traditionally China's biggest ally and could potentially become China's sword in dealings with India and the oil-rich middle east, so it has to go, I suppose.

    Who really understands the strategems and the deepest counsels of those that run America?

    So that is really just a guess from me.

  7. #7
    Rebel Jeb's Avatar Mayo
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    We should nuke the enemies. It worked it Japan.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aion View Post
    We should nuke the enemies. It worked it Japan.
    I am inclined to agree if it comes to that. Sure alot of civvies will die but its seriously been a melting pot over there for long enough and the age of great military commanders is truly over. Of course then there's the sticky topic of nuclear deterrence.
    Last edited by Yojimbo; September 08, 2009 at 07:27 PM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForlornHope. View Post
    I am inclined to agree if it comes to that. Sure alot of civvies will die but its seriously been a melting pot over there for long enough and the age of great military commanders is truly over. Of course then there's the sticky topic of nuclear deterrence.
    However unlike Japan, There is no nation to defeat. Fact is those who suggest it are nothing more than genociding freaks who get their jollies bombing "little brown men".

    No one would be stupid enough to use a nuke because of the resulting destruction that would follow in the US and other places. Nuke Afghanistan and New York, DC and other places will be targeted. Unless you like to destory the world, you'd be taking this foolish option.

    I for one hope more level headed people in charge than the lot of genociding freaks.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Shahanshah of Pakistan View Post
    However unlike Japan, There is no nation to defeat. Fact is those who suggest it are nothing more than genociding freaks who get their jollies bombing "little brown men".

    No one would be stupid enough to use a nuke because of the resulting destruction that would follow in the US and other places. Nuke Afghanistan and New York, DC and other places will be targeted. Unless you like to destory the world, you'd be taking this foolish option.

    I for one hope more level headed people in charge than the lot of genociding freaks.
    lol at the racism. My point was that the entire country ceaselessly causes trouble and if they wont stop they could end up being be nuked.

    And yes i do see you were indirectly insulting me.
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForlornHope. View Post
    lol at the racism. My point was that the entire country ceaselessly causes trouble and if they wont stop they should be nuked. Kill enough to cause fear.
    Afghanistan is not a country where the majority of the population conveniently lives in metropolitan areas. Many of its inhabitants reside in remote, small villages spread out about the country. Dropping nuclear weapons would not only be immoral but would not be very cost effective.
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForlornHope. View Post
    lol at the racism. My point was that the entire country ceaselessly causes trouble and if they wont stop they could end up being be nuked.

    And yes i do see you were indirectly insulting me.
    Do you seriously advocate mass genocide on civilian city's + 20 taliban militias and calling the other guy for the insultier?
    It's like killing pidgens in the middle of the city with bazooka. My god I think we need to have 'political science' starting in first grade.
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aion View Post
    We should nuke the enemies. It worked it Japan.
    i was going to say, occupy the country, kill everyone, strip mine and THEN Nuke it

  14. #14

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by JakethX View Post
    i was going to say, occupy the country, kill everyone, strip mine and THEN Nuke it
    And after killing 35.000.000 Afghans dont forget to massacre 180.000.000 Pakistanis also.I feel sorry for US soldiers though.They have A LOT work to do

  15. #15

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Maybe usa should just keep their dirty slaver hands off other states, but do feel free to stick around, i am sure poeople in iraq and A'ghani have a lot of bombs for all of you.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Its never been about winning the war, its been about the military industrial complex with the defense and oil contracts, war is an industry, and its an industry our country needs to keep our head above water.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Dont forget the promise he made during his campaign mathias - he said that he is the only candidate who was against the war from the beginning and if he got made president he would withdraw immediatly, no if ands and buts, yet now when hes elected hes pushing not only the for the war, but trying to send more troops ? ridiculous.

    Does anyone have the nads to try and shed some more light on why we are actually in afghanistan and formerly iraq and now pakistan, and very nearly iran, we was told it was to find osama bin laden in afghan, remove saddam in iraq for helping al queda, and destroy his WMDS, yet osama bin laden was never anywhere near afghan, he was always in saudi arabia - the bin ladens are very close to the royalty there, the hijackers themselfs were even from saudi arabia and not iraq like originally said, 2nd saddam was never proven to have wmds or have any contact whatsoever with al queda even the cia said there was no connection, the ones who did have contact with al queda was the pakistani isi who wiretransffered the funds, then you have the wmd problem - Cheney/Rumsfield said we had intelligence he had them in and around tikrit and baghdad, and he may have many others hidden, we have yet to find 1 to this day.

    Its a pointless war, and if not So why are we there, what do we hope to accomplish ?
    Last edited by Martin N; September 08, 2009 at 08:39 AM.

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  18. #18
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    Dont forget the promise he made during his campaign mathias - he said that he is the only candidate who was against the war from the beginning and if he got made president he would withdraw immediatly, no if ands and buts, yet now when hes elected hes pushing not only the for the war, but trying to send more troops ? ridiculous.

    Does anyone have the nads to try and shed some more light on why we are actually in afghanistan and formerly iraq and now pakistan, and very nearly iran, we was told it was to find osama bin laden in afghan, remove saddam in iraq for helping al queda, and destroy his WMDS, yet osama bin laden was never anywhere near afghan, he was always in saudi arabia - the bin ladens are very close to the royalty there, the hijackers themselfs were even from saudi arabia and not iraq like originally said, 2nd saddam was never proven to have wmds or have any contact whatsoever with al queda even the cia said there was no connection, the ones who did have contact with al queda was the pakistani isi who wiretransffered the funds, then you have the wmd problem - Cheney/Rumsfield said we had intelligence he had them in and around tikrit and baghdad, and he may have many others hidden, we have yet to find 1 to this day.

    So why was we there ?


    Being against the war from the beginning is not the equivalent of saying "When I become president I will commit one of the most idiotic manuevers in history and basically remove all of our troops from the middle east thus sending the country of Iraq into a storm and Afganistan back into the hands of the Taliban.

    No he did not start the war in Iraq and he did not support it either. But he is president now and he cannot change history. He is withdrawing troops. He has withdrawn most Brigades from major cities, thus giving the Iraqis more self control.

    Generals in Afganistan requested more troops? Whats your point?.

    So quick do Americans forget why we are in Iraq and Afganistan, or did the whitehouse just change parties suddenly and now you forgot? Bush Invaded Iraq and claim it was because Saddam had WMDs which he didnt. Bush was a Republican. The Taliban were in Afganistan and they were sheltering Osama who mastermind 9-11. Now we cant leave the country in the middle of the war or the country would turn to and guess who would come back from Pakistan.

    Besides Obama never said Saddam had WMDs mate, that was Cheney and Bush and they are no longer in power. The fact is its too late to just pull out and pretend nothing has happen. The Iraqi forces must be brought up to strenght first. You can thank Bush for disbanding the Iraqi military when he went in thus releasing millions of young men with no jobs into the population.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin N View Post
    Dont forget the promise he made during his campaign mathias - he said that he is the only candidate who was against the war from the beginning and if he got made president he would withdraw immediatly, no if ands and buts, yet now when hes elected hes pushing not only the for the war, but trying to send more troops ? ridiculous.
    The only two Democrats in the campaign that were sincerely in favor of complete withdrawal were Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich. Mike Gravel jumped on both Clinton and Obama for their comments about the wars in one of the debates.

    If I could take back my vote I would, but I think that Obama's campaign runners did an excellent job of making him the face of everything oppositional to previous policies, when in truth, Obama is much more lenient in regards of actual policymaking than most Democrats were. That's why I laughed my head off when McCain described him as having the most liberal voting record in the Senate.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; September 08, 2009 at 09:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Its offical we have no clue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    The only two Democrats in the campaign that were sincerely in favor of complete withdrawal were Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich. Mike Gravel jumped on both Clinton and Obama for their comments about the wars in one of the debates.

    If I could take back my vote I would, but I think that Obama's campaign runners did an excellent job of making him the face of everything oppositional to previous policies, when in truth, Obama is much more lenient in regards of actual policymaking than most Democrats were. That's why I laughed my head off when McCain described him as having the most liberal voting record in the Senate.
    Obama as the opposite of Bush's policies was very easy to do. The actual brilliance of the campaign was casting Obama as an agent of change that would not be affected by the realities of governing. Candidate Obama usually took a central, noncommittal stance on issues.
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