Should we give back nothing to noone?

[eisenkopf]

Inspired by all the senseless threads about changing current nationals borders, be it by giving back some territories or "reuniting" poor devided countries like Austria and Germany, I would like to ask you:

Should the national borders in Europe stay as they are, because we have more pressing matters to pay attention to?

Or

Should we waste our time in endless debates about who possessed what when, and whether it was "justified" in taking this or that land, and should we go to war about stuff like borders anymore?

Or

Should we elect the most disliked celebraties of each country, and let them slug it out in a deathmatch?

[Pious Agnost]

I nearly voted the first one, I'll give you that.

But I used to love celebrity deathmatch...

[Babur]

I voted yes since land disputes will only be the source of continued tension.

[CiviC]

Like it or not, border changes will always be a reality. In the last 20 years, Yugoslavia desintegrated, Czechoslovakia splited, Soviet Union also desintegrated. In the last few years only : Montenegro became independent, Kosovo, is also recognized as independent by half of world states, Russia tries to take Abkhazia and Ossetia from Georgia, etc.

So don't fool yourself and think that all is in the past!

P.S. I love those guys who think they have the moral high ground!

[eisenkopf]

Like it or not, border changes will always be a reality. In the last 20 years, Yugoslavia desintegrated, Czechoslovakia splited, Soviet Union also desintegrated. In the last few years only : Montenegro became independent, Kosovo, is also recognized as independent by half of world states, Russia tries to take Abkhazia and Ossetia from Georgia, etc.

So don't fool yourself and think that all is in the past!

I don't, that's why I ask what others think about it. Don't be fooled by the Deathmatch option, I'm quite serious about this.

Did you notice that all your examples involve the splitting up/gaining independance of nation states (the Georgian/Russian issue ist the other way round: The attempts at "reunification" of something (the USSR) that was "unjustly torn apart")? I think that's quite a difference to what I refered to, i.e. the ongoing needless and senseless discussion of "justifications" for previous territorial occupations, or reunifications, or the handing back of territories, etc.

Oh, and who has some moral high ground here? I can't see it. It's all flat plains around here.

[Babur]

Like it or not, border changes will always be a reality. In the last 20 years, Yugoslavia desintegrated, Czechoslovakia splited, Soviet Union also desintegrated. In the last few years only : Montenegro became independent, Kosovo, is also recognized as independent by half of world states, Russia tries to take Abkhazia and Ossetia from Georgia, etc.

So don't fool yourself and think that all is in the past!

P.S. I love those guys who think they have the moral high ground!

moral highground? lol

I am just saying it would be good if people stopped demanding changes to the maps of Europe.

[Poach]

I was hoping for a "Let all countries in Europe fight it out in a battle royale" option! But no. Celebrity deathmatch it is.

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

Germany must unite!!!

[konny]

missed a few decades of world history?

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

missed a few decades of world history?

Me?
AllGermany isn't united. Switzerland and Austria.

[SonOfAlexander]

If we could get rid of all nukes (shame that's never gonna happen) or have some way of having war with no nukes, then we could simply start empires and expansion again! f *** the UN and EU and go have fun conquering wherever we want! Help bring the popn down and then do the same with the world!

[Arch-hereticK]

Whatever happens blood will be spilt over incorrect borders, so we might as well just have a celebrity deathmatch where celebrities dress up like countries and decide borders that way. Perfectly fair you have to agree.

Vote for me as your EU representative, together we can make a difference.

[Ardruire Iacób]

incorrect borders

Such as?

[Dr. Croccer]

Such as?

All of continental Europe being not Dutch, and all of the British isles being not Irish. That's a massive flaw.

[Ardruire Iacób]

All of continental Europe being not Dutch, and all of the British isles being not Irish. That's a massive flaw.

How could I have forgotten? Forgive me.

[Arch-hereticK]

Such as?

Hungary, Kosovo/Serbia, Alsace, Serbia/Macedonia/Greece, Cyprus, N. Ireland, Slovenia/Croatia, Georgia/Azerbijan, Gibraltar, Turkey, Rockal islet, snake island is Ukranian obviously.
The republic of Abkhazia in Georgia is another concern.

There are loads more that I can't think of.

[eisenkopf]

Hungary, Kosovo/Serbia, Alsace, Serbia/Macedonia/Greece, Cyprus, N. Ireland, Slovenia/Croatia, Georgia/Azerbijan, Gibraltar, Turkey, Rockal islet, snake island is Ukranian obviously.
The republic of Abkhazia in Georgia is another concern.

There are loads more that I can't think of.

What excactly is wrong with all those borders? You do realize that for everyone who considers a border wrong, there are others who say it's just right?

This thread was inspired by my complete inability to understand why people tend to look backward and place such a great importance on a patch of land, instead of looking forward and investing their energies into a brighter future of their people, whether they live on "their" nation's territory or not.

I think that from a rational perspective, border and land disputes are simply counterproductive and and waste of time and effort. I cannot understand why one engages in them, or come up with bizarre ideas of "reuniting" Austria and Germany, or Germany and the lost eastern lands. Yet I see and read about it every day, in newspapers, books, and here on TWC. I simply cannot grasp it, and I come from a country were the borders have changed over the course of the centuries more than in any other European country, I dare say.

Is anyone able to explain it to me, preferably one of those that have voted the second option? Or am I doomed to wander the Earth in ignorance until the end of my days?

[Ebusitanus]

I have a southamerican gold empire to demand back, am I late?

[Romano-Dacis]

In the words of A.D. Xenopol: the only just reason for territorial claim is national self-determination. As the ethnic composition of regions change, the borders must be fluid and adjust so as to create the greatest possible justice for the greatest number of people. If borders remain static pressure will continue to build on them until the entire frontier collapses and the state dies.

The secret is not to stop borders from changing; we've been trying to do that at least since the Congress of Vienna and it has never worked. The real secret is to create a system where the change in borders can happen seamlessly. Perhaps we need a change in mentality, a less possessive humanity, in order to live in this ideal world where justice rather than weapons and historical imperative create, expand, and shrink nation-states.

[SonOfAlexander]

If you don't like a border, then go get an army and change it intead of sitting on your backsides arguing about it