Should Gibraltar be returned to Spain?

[CiviC]

Please vote and comment on the subject.

[garudamon11]

yes , its on spanish lands

[Yorkshireman]

yes , its on spanish lands

No its not. Spain is that large country next door.

In July 2002 proposals for joint sovereignty with Spain were revealed by British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. A second sovereignty referendum was organised in Gibraltar in November 2002, which rejected any idea of joint sovereignty by 17,900 (98.97%) votes to 187 (1.03%). The British Government restated that, in accordance with the preamble of the Constitution of Gibraltar:

The UK will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their freely and democratically expressed wishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar#Recent_history

Its not going to Spain and thats that, unless the entire population of Gib decide to inexplicably change nationality after 305 years.

[Manco]

We already have a massive thread on this, and you're not really bring something new to the debate.

Oh, and Garudamon, nice ignoring of democracy and the simple fact it has been British longer than it's ever been Spanish.

[CiviC]

We already have a massive thread on this, and you're not really bring something new to the debate.

Oh, and Garudamon, nice ignoring of democracy and the simple fact it has been British longer than it's ever been Spanish.

Maybe condominium is a new idea?
Anyway not everyone had the chance maybe to participate to that debate, new members join the forum everyday.

[garudamon11]

We already have a massive thread on this, and you're not really bring something new to the debate.

Oh, and Garudamon, nice ignoring of democracy and the simple fact it has been British longer than it's ever been Spanish.

thats like saying transylvania should be a part of hungary cause hungarians ruled it longer than romanians did

[Manco]

thats like saying transylvania should be a part of hungary cause hungarians ruled it longer than romanians did

Except that the British still have Gib, and in this analogy Spain is more like Hungary wanting a land back they have zilch to do with besides geographical proximity.

Points in favour of Britain:
-They already have it
-They've had it longer than any other extant state
-the people have chosen in free elections to remain part of Britain.

Points in favour of Spain:
-It's closer.


Wow, I can see the strenght of the Spanish claims.

In the end, you're still opposing the democratic wishes and freedom of a population. We're not.

If every small community in Europe would have a vote weather to be independent or not or to join another country I think Europe would have thousands of independent states and the borders would have crazy configurations.

The differnce is that not all those communities would have a similar political history giving them increased autonomy, and therefore it's not comparable.

[Stalins Ghost]

It should go to whoever the people of the Rock want it to go to.

Also: It was Spanish for 212 years. It's been British for 296 and has been a British possession almost as long as the union has existed. It only really makes sense for it to stay a British territory if that's what the people want.

[pannonian]

How is this question, as framed in the OP, historical? And if it isn't historical, why is it in the History section?

[Pious Agnost]

Can't we go back to the good ol' days when things like this were settled with a war?

$50 on Britain

[lordoftheT]

Well the people of Gibraltar seem to be fine with being British soooo...

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

The people of Gib don't feel Spanish, and that's final. I can't see why the Spanish would want to integrate a fully foreign population into their country.

[CiviC]

The people of Gib don't feel Spanish, and that's final. I can't see why the Spanish would want to integrate a fully foreign population into their country.

And the Irish in Northern Ireland don't feel British at all, let the counties where they are a majority join Irish Republic!

Back to topic, of course that the population don't want Spain, I guess if France would have conquered Dover and colonised it with French, if you make a plebiscite they will vote for France.

My point is, is it legitimate for Great Britain to have Gibraltar just GB because conquered a piece of Spain and then colonised it. If Hong Kong was given back to China (and I'm sure the people there preffered to stay with GB) why Gibraltar is different. Just because Spain isn't a country of more of one billion people and they don't have nuclear bombs and anyway they will not make war for Gibraltar with GB?

[Lance-Corporal Jones]

And the Irish in Northern Ireland don't feel British at all, let the counties where they are a majority join Irish Republic!

Well that's fine by me.

Back to topic, of course that the population don't want Spain, I guess if France would have conquered Dover and colonised it with French, if you make a plebiscite they will vote for France.

Maybe. Sounds a bit like the problem you Frenchies are having with St. Pierre and Miquelon, eh? The people there feel French, even though Canada wants to grab it.

[CiviC]

Maybe. Sounds a bit like the problem you Frenchies are having with St. Pierre and Miquelon, eh? The people there feel French, even though Canada wants to grab it.

Well, I'm not French, just a fan of Capetians

[Visna]

My point is, is it legitimate for Great Britain to have Gibraltar just GB because conquered a piece of Spain and then colonised it. If Hong Kong was given back to China (and I'm sure the people there preffered to stay with GB) why Gibraltar is different. Just because Spain isn't a country of more of one billion people and they don't have nuclear bombs and anyway they will not make war for Gibraltar with GB?

Because Hong Kong was "leased" with an expiration date attatched.
The people of Gibraltar voted to remain in the UK with an overwhelming majority, and that should put this silly discussion to rest. But nope, you can always find someone who is willing to sacrifice the will of the people involved to satisfy whatever urge they have to try to "reclaim" territory.
Or at least make threads on TWC about it...

[pannonian]

If Hong Kong was given back to China (and I'm sure the people there preffered to stay with GB)

No they didn't. They were apprehensive about China taking over the HK government, but they didin't have any strong wish to remain under British government. And nowadays, they're happy with the current state of sovereignty.

[Yorkshireman]

The people of Gib don't want to be part of Spain and thats all there is to it, end of story. They choose what they want regardless of what the Spanish or British governments prefer and they chose to remain a self-governing territory of the UK.

[CiviC]

The people of Gib don't want to be part of Spain and thats all there is to it, end of story. They choose what they want regardless of what the Spanish or British governments prefer and they chose to remain a self-governing territory of the UK.

Of course self determination is fine for the British when the population wants to remain British, but when the 13 Colonies wanted independence ... well everybody knows what happened.

[Visna]

Of course self determination is fine for the British when the population wants to remain British, but when the 13 Colonies wanted independence ... well everybody knows what happened.

Apart from the silly comparison, it was unknown to me that the people living in the 13 colonies had a popular vote about whether to remain part of the UK or not.
If the good people living in Gibraltar voted that they would much rather be a part of Spain, I sincerely doubt you'd see a British task-force set sail from Dover to go down there and get them back in line.