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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    It has been some time since I last posted on the subject of Orthodoxy, and I see that there are now several Orthodox Christian members posting on this forum and people who are discussing Orthodoxy. Therefore I decided that it would be a good idea to write a brief introduction to the subject for those who are interested. If you would like to ask questions or discuss any points, please do.

    Needless to say this is a very, very extensive subject, and I have gone over many subjects quite briefly. I shall be happy to expand upon any individual point, however.



    Who We Are

    Orthodoxy Today

    You have probably heard of the 'Greek Orthodox' and the 'Russian Orthodox'. In proper terms, these are both a part of the Orthodox Church, often referred to as the 'Eastern Orthodox Church', since it is mostly based in Eastern Europe, Russia, Africa and the Middle East. The most concentrated Orthodox Christian populations are to be found in Greece, Russia, Byelorussia, Ukraine, Estonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Moldova, Syria, Israel, Egypt, Ethiopia and various other countries. There are also significant Orthodox minorities in nearby countries such as Finland, Poland etc. This is a result of many historical factors, especially the dominance of the Roman Catholic and later the Protestant Churches in Western Europe and the Americas and the Islamic conquest of the Middle East and South-Eastern Europe.

    Despite the widespread (and misleading) use of names like 'Greek' and 'Russian' Orthodox, the Orthodox Church is not based on any ethnicity or culture, but is a single Christian communion that transcends nationality. Although certain factors such as language and musical style are varied to suit different cultures (for obvious reasons), the beliefs and core practices of the Orthodox Church are universal and common to every country. The Orthodox Church is a missionary Church and actively attempts to spread the Christian message beyond traditionally Orthodox countries. For example, Russian missionaries in the 19th century spread Orthodox Christianity across central Asia and into China, Japan and even Alaska and the Eastern seaboard of North America as far as San Francisco. In the modern day there are large Orthodox missionary efforts in the USA, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, several African countries and many others that may be surprising. For instance, a large Orthodox cathedral was recently opened in Havana in Cuba.

    Although most Orthodox Christians are to be found in the above countries, there are increasing numbers of Orthodox Christians in other areas, especially the United States of America, Western Europe, Australia and the Far East. Although the initial Orthodox populations of such countries were usually immigrants, in the modern day there are extremely large numbers of converts to Orthodoxy. For example, a recent census revealed that 51% of laity and 56% of clergy in the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) are converts, including Metropolitan Jonah Paffhausen, the senior hierarch of the OCA. There are perhaps as many as 6,000,000 Orthodox Christians in the United States of America, though no exact figure can be given.


    Orthodox History


    The history of the Orthodox Church is closely woven into that of the Roman Catholic Church, since both came from the same origins. Briefly, the Christian Church created in the 1st century AD remained in the most part a united whole (with some small splinter groups that are even hinted at in the New Testament) and spread through the Middle East and the Mediterranean world. This spread was aided by the growth of the Roman Empire, which meant that Christians could travel from one end of Europe to the other without ever having to cross political or economic boundaries. As the Christian Church grew there came to be larger theological controversies such as those concerning the Holy Trinity and the natures of Christ. In order to make clear what the orthodox belief of the Church was and so combat newly created heresies the Church held a series of seven great Ecumenical ('universal') Councils (ending in AD 787), to which all the bishops of the Church were invited. On the basis of Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church "into all truth", Orthodox Christians believe that these Ecumenical Councils express the orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church. The Roman Catholic Church also accepts these Ecumenical Councils, though it also accepts 13 other, later Councils as Ecumenical; the Orthodox do not accept these later 13, since they did not represent the Orthodox world.

    In the Middle Ages the Christians of Western and Eastern Europe (broadly speaking) grew increasingly divided. There were various issues at stake, though these all focused on the claim of the Roman Pope to be the ultimate leader of the Church and so dictate beliefs and practices to the rest of the Church. The Eastern Christians did not accept this claim and so the Church became divided into 'Latin' Christianity under the Pope (today called the Roman Catholic Church) and the Orthodox East which did not (and does not) have any single head or equivalent to the Roman Pope. This schism was effectively sealed by the Fourth Crusade, in which Crusaders attacked Orthodox Christians and sacked the great Orthodox Christian city of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire. Though the Pope initially forbade this attack, afterwards he retrospectively endorsed it. Towards the end of the Middle Ages the Muslim Turks conquered the Byzantine Empire and much of South-Eastern Europe, while the Mongols controlled much of Russia. As a result, the Orthodox were largely cut off from the rest of Europe and were not affected by the Protestant reformation. In recent centuries many Orthodox gradually regained their independence; first Muscovy united the Russians under its power, and in the 19th century Greece and the Balkan nations freed themselves from the Islamic Ottoman Empire.


    What We Believe

    The website www.orthodoxwiki.org summarises the Orthodox Christian belief thus:

    Orthodox Christianity is the life in faith of the Orthodox Church, inseparable from that concrete, historic community and encompassing its entire way of life. The Orthodox Christian faith is that faith "handed once to the saints" (Jude 3), passed on in Holy Tradition to the apostles by Jesus Christ, and then handed down from one generation to the next, without addition or subtraction.

    The sole purpose of Orthodox Christianity is the salvation of every human person, uniting him to Christ in the Church, transforming him in holiness, and imparting eternal life. This is the Gospel, the good news, that Jesus is the Messiah, that he rose from the dead, and that we may be saved as a result.


    The Source of the Orthodox Faith

    In brief, the source of Orthodox Christian belief is God. This has been gradually revealed and demonstrated over the years, beginning with the Jewish Patriarchs and Prophets, who produced what we today call the Old Testament. Then God became man, born of the Virgin Mary, and revealed the fulfilment of this faith to his disciples the Apostles. After the creation of the Christian Church at Pentecost in the 1st century AD, the Apostles passed on the Christian faith to their disciples, who passed it on to their disciples, and so forth. At a very early date (approx. AD 40 - 120) these Apostles and their disciples wrote many different texts on their experiences and the Christian religion, some of which (but not all) were believed to be of divine inspiration. In the 4th century the bishops of the Church officially proclaimed (NOTE: they did not decide) that these were canonical and so they became what we know as the 'New Testament'. Down the years the traditional belief of the Church was officially proclaimed in the Seven Ecumenical Councils. As the nun Mother Thekla of the Monastery of the Assumption in Great Britain has said, Orthodox belief is always fulfilment, never innovation.

    Many people today believe that the Orthodox derive their beliefs from traditions as opposed to the Bible. In fact this is a false choice. As noted above, Orthodox belief comes originally from God, and this has been passed down through the years as what is referred to as the 'Holy Tradition' ('traditio' in Latin means an act of passing something on). The Bible is a part of Holy Tradition - the most important part, perhaps, but only a part. Some object to this and insist that Christian belief can only be derived from the Bible (i.e. the Old and New Testaments together), and nothing else. However, this is rather illogical, considering that Christians existed before the Bible did. The New Testament texts were not completed until approx. AD 120, and the 'Bible' was never circulated as a single book until several hundred years later. It stands to reason then that the earliest Christians did not derive their beliefs from the Bible (which did not exist at first) but rather from the teachings passed on to them by Christ and the Apostles. This is even borne out by Biblical texts such as:

    So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
    2 Thessalonians 2:15

    The Core Beliefs of Orthodox Christianity

    Not all Orthodox Christian beliefs are what you might call 'official' dogma. The Orthodox Church recognises that while there are many things that a person must believe to be an Orthodox Christian, there are also other things that it considers to be matters of personal opinion and not essential to salvation, since they have not been clearly stated by God. For example, whether or not the creation story of Genesis is a literal historical narrative is seen as a matter of personal opinion. While some accept it as such, many notable Orthodox Christians of the past (such as St Augustine in his On the Literal Interpretation of Genesis) have preferred to say that it is not a literal historical narrative but rather a story that conveys a spiritual history of mankind. Other examples of matters of opinion include Purgatory - the idea originated in the Roman Catholic Church and most Orthodox do not accept it; however, the Orthodox Church does not say that a person cannot accept it.

    Nonetheless, there are certain strictly defined beliefs to which a person must subscribe to be Orthodox. These are set out in the Nicene Creed, the official statement of Orthodox faith named after the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. It runs thus:

    I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of Heaven and of Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
    And I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten from the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, being of one essence with the Father, through whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven and was made incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man; who was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate and suffered and was buried, and on the third day rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again to judge both the living and the dead; his kingdom shall have no end.
    And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped glorified; who spoke by the Prophets.
    And I believe in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen.


    God

    Orthodox Christians believe that God is a Holy Trinity, three persons who share one divine essence: Father, Son and Holy Spirit (like some other Orthodox beliefs this seems paradoxical to human understanding, and yet we accept that God has revealed Himself thus). There never was nor will be a time when any of the Trinity did not exist. God is not an impersonal concept or force, but rather a real God who interacts with mankind on a personal level. The source and unity of the Trinity is the Father; the Son is begotten from the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

    The Son, Jesus Christ, was begotten eternally before time by the Father and without a mother; He was begotten in time by the Ever-Virgin Mary and took on human nature in the years roughly around AD 0. Jesus Christ has both human and divine natures at the same time. He is not half-God and half-man or any other combination, but is rather fully human and fully divine in perfect unity but without confusion.

    N.B. Mary is thus called Theotokos or 'Mother of God', since she gave birth to God in His human flesh. The Virgin Mary however is a human like any other and only mother of God's human nature, not His divine nature. This is important to note, since many people, especially Muslims, mistakenly believe that the Orthodox view Mary as a sort of fourth member of the Trinity.

    Fall and Salvation

    As expressed in the creation story in Genesis, God created mankind (expressed principally via the character of Adam) in order to enter into immortal communion with Him. At first Adam was neither mortal nor immortal but had free will to obey or disobey God. Adam was essentially like a child, and if he were to grow up in obedience to God then he would attain immortality. However, Adam wanted to be Godlike and so ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thus introducing death into the world by his sin. While Roman Catholics and many Protestants believe in Original Sin, by which guilt for Adam's since is passed down through every generation, Orthodox do not. We believe that we have inherited the effects of Adam's sin (mortality and culpability), but we only have the capacity to be guilty for our own sins.

    However, God became man in the person of Jesus Christ; by His sacrifice on the cross He expiated the guilt of human sin and by His resurrection on the third day He destroyed the power of death. God thus offers mankind the opportunity to wash away the guilt of any wrongdoings committed through our free will and to be immortally united to His divine energies. The ultimate aim of salvation is thus to be united in eternal communion with God. The achievement of Jesus' death and resurrection is summarised in this Orthodox hymn of Easter:

    "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and to those in the tombs He has given life."

    Salvation and the Church

    God then has given mankind the opportunity to be saved, and yet God has not taken away our free will. God does not force anyone to be saved. God loves us, and if we are to truly love God in return then our love must be freely given; otherwise it is not true love. It is by the Grace of God alone that man is saved. We must choose to accept God's Grace. Once we have done this we are baptised (in the process of which we undergo the same spiritual death and resurrection as Christ did) and then we become members of Christ's body, the Church, and regularly participate in Christ through the Holy Eucharist. Orthodox believe that the Eucharist does truly impart the Body and Blood of Christ to participants, even if the materials are not chemically changed (though I have never put the Eucharist under a microscope...).

    Our lifetimes are often long, however, and our will remains free throughout our life. We do not believe in the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." Often we may and do choose to reject God again, and so we must make a constant effort to strive towards God. Many Protestants confuse this with salvation by works, however this is incorrect. To truly have faith in God we must have a faith that is acted out in daily life - if we are not willing to put our words into action, then we are not being honest. Thus Orthodox Christians believe that we must live within the framework of the Church and act according to the commandments in order to continually strengthen our faith in God.


    Further Reading

    This post has not covered every subject, nor has it covered everything in great depth. For more detailed information, you can visit these websites:

    Orthodox Wiki
    Introduction to the Orthodox Church
    Orthodox Theology
    'The Orthodox Faith' by Fr Thomas Hopko
    Orthodoxy compared to Protestantism and Catholicism
    Monachos.net Orthodox Discussion Forum

    And let's not forget the now classic book The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware.


    I intend to add some extra sections on Saints, icons and rituals in the Orthodox Church when I have more time.
    Last edited by Zenith Darksea; September 08, 2009 at 04:17 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Hmm good read. Nice to know the difference between Orthodox, Roman catholic, and Protestant.

    When I was young, foolish, and naive I used to think that the Greek Orthodox Church worshiped the Greek gods
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  3. #3
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    So here we have it within the salvation and church section of why the Orthodox do not conform to all that Paul was given to write by Jesus Christ the Lord. Salvation to it is subject to the will of man and not God. Given that man is bound in sin, subject to condemnation by the Law, and under the power of Satan, that is exactly why Paul would call this another gospel.

    That Jesus Christ was the substitute for all those that He would save doesn't come into this. No it is man's choice and in that choice all he then has to do is be baptised with water and lo and behold he is born again. What utter rubbish. God who hung on that tree for my sin is bound to the choice I then make and He can do nothing about it.

    Paul writes that man doesn't have any choice that he has been handed over to every reprobate sin that can be devised. But this organisation says no, Paul is wrong, and he Paul was taught by Jesus Christ Himself, so He too must be wrong, everyone is wrong but this organisation that proclaims water as the saviour of mankind.

    But it is not water but blood shed by faith of Jesus Christ that is unto all and upon all them that believe who are saved and that by revelation from God according to Scripture. As my substitute He took on the punishment as though I myself was the one hanging there and when He died I died with Him because He was acting on my behalf.

    So on that truth was I absent from all this? No I certainly wasn't even though as then I had never been born. Why so? Because His sacrifice covered all time so that all could be gathered in and that confirmed by blood. So in those hours what the Law condemned me for, now it no longer has that power because I too died when Jesus Christ died and when He rose again He confirmed that I too will rise again.

    Now is this in any way similar to what the Orthodox want you to believe? No it is not. Why not? Because it is another gospel that is no gospel at all and if no gospel at all there is nothing in it to save anyone. They like their Catholic brothers put yokes on men that makes the simplicity of the Gospel appear heavy, but it is not heavy.

  4. #4
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    That Jesus Christ was the substitute for all those that He would save doesn't come into this. No it is man's choice and in that choice all he then has to do is be baptised with water and lo and behold he is born again. What utter rubbish. God who hung on that tree for my sin is bound to the choice I then make and He can do nothing about it.
    You didn't really read what I wrote, did you? God is not bound by man's will, but rather chooses to allow man to either accept or reject Him, since he wants our love to be freely given. If our love for God is not given willingly, then we become nothing more than mindless slaves. Love that is not given freely is not love at all, and God wants man to love Him freely.

    I see also that you're still not reading the Bible either.

    Jesus answered, "'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
    John 3:5

    ...who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolises baptism that now saves you also...
    1 Peter 3:20-1

    We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
    Romans 6:4

    In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
    Colossians 2:11-12

    ...for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
    Galatians 3:27

    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    Paul writes that man doesn't have any choice that he has been handed over to every reprobate sin that can be devised. But this organisation says no, Paul is wrong, and he Paul was taught by Jesus Christ Himself, so He too must be wrong, everyone is wrong but this organisation that proclaims water as the saviour of mankind.
    Listen, stop telling me what I believe and start reading it for yourself. You assert a very Protestant view of Predestination, namely that God picks some people to be saved and some people to be damned, and you do this based on a misreading of one book of the New Testament! Just as you try to tell me what I believe, it seems like you are trying to tell St Paul what he believed. St Paul talks a lot in Romans about the foreknowledge of God, yet exactly what the implications of this are are difficult for humans to fathom. Now, St Paul asserts that God's will is paramount, that He will have mercy when he wishes and harden the heart of whomever He wishes. That God is capable of this is quite clear, and we Orthodox believe that God has paramount power over all things. However, as I said earlier, God offers Grace to all men and then chooses to allow men to accept or reject. God encourages man to accept, but does not force. You have taken a few sentences from the Epistle to the Romans and imposed your own interpretation on them. Yet your interpretation is wrong. You believe in the inerrancy of Scripture just like I do (though you mean something slightly more primitive than I do when you say that). Well then, you should realise that what St Paul says in Romans must be compatible with what is said elsewhere in the Bible.

    "... If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
    Isaiah 1:19-20

    This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
    1 Timothy 2:3-7

    For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
    2 Corinthians 5:14-15

    Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
    Philippians 2:12-13

    I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead, pressing on toward the Goal. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
    Philippians 3:10-14

    The God that you have made for yourself, basics, picks some people to be saved and the rest to be damned, denying mankind all freedom of choice. Yet don't you see how this idol of yours contradicts the Holy Scriptures?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    Because His sacrifice covered all time so that all could be gathered in and that confirmed by blood. So in those hours what the Law condemned me for, now it no longer has that power because I too died when Jesus Christ died and when He rose again He confirmed that I too will rise again.
    This is what I mean - you're not listening properly. That is exactly what Orthodox believe. Only we also recognise - as St Paul recognises in the above section of Philippians - that we have been allowed freedom of choice and action throughout our lives. If we continue to have faith in Christ then yes, we shall be saved in exactly the way you stated. However, you should be careful for yourself - just as St Paul did not consider that he had attained perfection once and for all, neither should you. If you should happen to fall away from God in the future, you might yet find that you will not partake in Christ's sacrifice after all.

    If you listen, that is.

  5. #5
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    " However, as I said earlier, God offers Grace to all men and then chooses to allow men to accept or reject. God encourages man to accept, but does not force. You have taken a few sentences from the Epistle to the Romans and imposed your own "
    Zenith Darksea,

    All the Scripture you quoted is true and faithful. Where you and I differ is that you assume baptism of the Holy Ghost to be baptism by water as the method of being saved. When Jesus said that men must be born of water and the Spirit let's have a look at that.

    All men are born of water, this is natural birth but when you add the Spirit then that takes on a quite different aspect especially as no man is born of the Spirit until conversion meaning that something special has already happened to them. It means that what has happened is such that the Holy Spirit can indwell them, that by rebirth they are cleansed of sin elsewise the Spirit could not enter them.

    So, you, if you have the Spirit of God, must be in a position where there is no sin because light cannot dwell with darkness. That was what the cross was all about. Making it possible for men to have the Comforter where before they couldn't. But if you say that all men share the shed blood then in truth all men are saved because their sin has been washed away without any choice at all.

    Now I don't know if you understand that what you are doing is making it more difficult for men to be saved, the very opposite of the simplicity of the Gospel. That Jesus Christ died for certain people is so obvious and them that are saved will be confirmed as saved on the day that the Father converts them, the same day that the Holy Ghost indwells them. And all because some are brought to faith through revelation.

    You say that is only from one piece of Scripture yet it is from all Scripture that men are saved by faith. Faith that is unto all and upon all them that are saved or do believe, the faith of Jesus Christ. And how that is achieved is by none coming to the Father except by Jesus Christ and none coming to Him except the Father draws them. Does He draw all? No He doesn't although it is certain that He tells all. Only them that know a certain voice belong to that voice.
    Last edited by Seleukos; September 27, 2009 at 08:02 PM.

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    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    You say that is only from one piece of Scripture yet it is from all Scripture that men are saved by faith.
    Yes, that's what I've been saying all along. Please, just pay attention for once!

    And please, show some evidence to back up your attacks! It isn't that hard. You must have a Bible. Yet all you do is ramble vaguely. It may lead others to suspect that the reason you never provide any evidenc is because there is no evidence for you to provide. You simply resort to distortion and arbitrary assertion.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Zenith Darksea,

    The day you can relate what Jesus Christ has done in your life and by that I mean the new life not the old, then my friend you will be entitled to rebuke me. For twentysix/seven years God has been teaching me but then I don't suppose that is one that you can relate to, as your buddy in crime and idolatry also refuses to accept.

    Fling up all the Scripture you want, have read it over and over, but to me it is not the dead letter that confuses men, that yokes men. To me it is the living word that works everyday in my life and has yet to let me down and more importantly I am not ashamed of it. Now you relate your communion with the Lord that I would ask for forgiveness for doubting you.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    It's always funny when two people from different dogmatic stances fling their baseless assumptions and conjectures at each other and then have the audacity to claim the high ground. It's like watching a discussion between two geeky teens on whether Spiderman would kick Batman's ass or the other way around.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Torment View Post
    It's always funny when two people from different dogmatic stances fling their baseless assumptions and conjectures at each other and then have the audacity to claim the high ground. It's like watching a discussion between two geeky teens on whether Spiderman would kick Batman's ass or the other way around.
    Why are you even posting if you aren't going to add anything relevant to the discussion? Obviously you haven't been following the discussion so you're words are pointless.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  10. #10

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Torment View Post
    It's always funny when two people from different dogmatic stances fling their baseless assumptions and conjectures at each other and then have the audacity to claim the high ground. It's like watching a discussion between two geeky teens on whether Spiderman would kick Batman's ass or the other way around.
    Or like a classic Picard vs. Kirk debate
    --- Theseus1234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    My opinion is 100% objective. That's how I'm so right all the time.
    ^Human hubris knows no bounds.

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    Hobbes's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Theseus1234 View Post
    Or like a classic Picard vs. Kirk debate
    Why do you laugh. That's a serious topic.

    Anyway, good article Zenith!

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Torment View Post
    It's always funny when two people from different dogmatic stances fling their baseless assumptions and conjectures at each other and then have the audacity to claim the high ground. It's like watching a discussion between two geeky teens on whether Spiderman would kick Batman's ass or the other way around.
    lol! + rep

    btw, would it be okay with you if i added this quote to my facebook page?

  13. #13
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    The day you can relate what Jesus Christ has done in your life and by that I mean the new life not the old, then my friend you will be entitled to rebuke me. For twentysix/seven years God has been teaching me but then I don't suppose that is one that you can relate to, as your buddy in crime and idolatry also refuses to accept.
    That's what it always comes down to with you, isn't it? Someone proves you wrong, so you say, "I'm saved and you're going to hell, so you must be wrong and I must be right." Well it's not good enough. Even the demons can say that sort of thing, but they can't fight against the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics
    Fling up all the Scripture you want, have read it over and over, but to me it is not the dead letter that confuses men, that yokes men. To me it is the living word that works everyday in my life and has yet to let me down and more importantly I am not ashamed of it.
    As I thought, you don't even care what the Bible says. You know better. It proves you wrong, but still you know better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torment
    It's always funny when two people from different dogmatic stances fling their baseless assumptions and conjectures at each other and then have the audacity to claim the high ground.
    I didn't intend to get into a doctrinal dispute, but I wasn't left with any choice. Now you may either make a positive contribution to the original aim of the thread or stand back and continue to watch.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Hi Zenith (O Orthodoxos Skotzezos) & Hello Basics!

    Brothers, Please just discuss and don't bicker. This forum has enough atheists and skeptics to NOT realize the Lord Jesus Christ, forget about the outworkings of the Christian "religion."

    As we know, the Lord didn't come to establish a religion but a way, HIM. "I am the way, the truth and the life." Amen.

    Now,

    We have got to see where we agree and prayerfully along with being led by the Holy Spirit, agree to disagree WHERE needed. We all see in part, let's never forget that.

    Let's discuss not argue nor bicker.

    Regarding "Predestination" from my perspective:

    Two sides to the same coin:
    God's Perspective: "Jesus died to save everyone and his death makes us right with the Father."
    Man's Perspective: "I need to accept Jesus to make me right with the Father."

    Ultimate understanding: "God initiates, We choose to follow or not."
    "Salvation available to all, but ONLY those who accept Jesus are actually saved."

    hellas1

  15. #15
    Lord Consul's Avatar Armchair intellectual
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    I once visited the great Orthodox Cathedral in São Paulo (St. Paul), Brazil. Orthodox Christianity is very similar, aesthetically speaking, to the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Both churches have plenty in common. A catholic who is unable to attend Mass because there is no catholic celebration available, may attend and receive Communion at an Orthodox mass - this kind of inter-communion has been formally allowed by the Holy See.

    Likewise, specially where there are no close Orthodox churches available, such as here in Rio, Orthodox Christians are friendly received by the Catholic hierarchy. The Romanian consul frequently attends mass in the city's Metropolitan Cathedral without raising eyebrows.
    Proud Client of Obi Wan Asterix

  16. #16
    Zenith Darksea's Avatar Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    You're right, there are very great similarities between Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism. You might even say that the Eastern Catholics are essentially Orthodox who are in communion with Rome.

  17. #17
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Zenith Darksea,

    John 4 verse10,
    “ Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink ; thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water.”

    It is quite clear that there is here a distinction between water that we drink, ritualise with and cleanse ourselves with. Jesus makes that comparison by talking about living water. So what exactly does He mean?

    If we look at the Scriptures all the way back to Moses and the Law, perhaps even further back, water plays a significant role for the Hebrews and them before. And if we see it correctly we find that it is a type and shadow of something far greater and it is this to which Jesus referred when speaking of living water.

    Yet in the other sense the Jews were bound, before they could approach the altar, to ritually cleanse themselves by water. Did it save any? No. Why? Because it was not living water but it was about Him who is living water. Do you understand? In this life we all need water but in the next it is living water on which we live.

    So does water save? That is the question that baffles the religious enough to believe that it does. Why they believe it is because they mix up the two baptisms that are recorded in Scripture indeed putting the cart before the horse as it were and if we look at the Acts of the Apostles we can see this.

    Acts 10, verses 44-48,
    “ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles, also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that they should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”

    Please note the sequence here. They believed because of the word and then the Holy Ghost fell on them and after all this was done they were then baptised with water in the name of the Lord. So does water make them new creatures? Not at all. It was the hearing of the word, it being the power of God to save, that saved them. They believed and because they believed the Holy Ghost fell on them.

    Acts 11, verses 14-17,
    “ Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. And as I began to speak the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how He said, John indeed baptized with water ; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as He did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ ; what was I, that I could withstand God.”

    Again note the sequence and the distinction between one baptism and another. By the words all his house and himself shall be saved. Since this is here guaranteed is it possible that this man most likely to die before the judgement is therefore barred from being with the Lord on whom he gave his belief? Not according to the stories of Lazarus and the thief on the cross who by the way never saw water to be baptised at all. So does water save, indeed does it come before salvation or after? The verses above speak for themselves proving it is not me, basics, that condemns you, rather the word of God.

    I intend to take each of your quotations as you have listed them but time does not allow this at the moment so bear with me on that.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea View Post
    You're right, there are very great similarities between Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism. You might even say that the Eastern Catholics are essentially Orthodox who are in communion with Rome.
    But we mustn't forget that for Orthodox church, Catholic church(in fact the right name is Roman Catholic- because Catholic is only the Orthodox church) is considered among the Heresies.


  19. #19

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Bascis the verses concerning the Jews washing themselves isn't Baptism. It's just washing. Here is a good question for you since you are ignoring the scriptural posts Zenith is proving you wrong with, why is it that when the soldier pierced Christ's side both blood and water flowed out?

    But we mustn't forget that for Orthodox church, Catholic church(in fact the right name is Roman Catholic- because Catholic is only the Orthodox church) is considered among the Heresies.
    The right name technically from our perspective wouldn't be Roman either. The whole "Roman Catholic Church" to me is quite similar to the situation concerning the "Holy Roman Empire."

    As for eastern rite catholic...many of those, at least in Europe were Orthodox Churches that due to violence or politics were decided to follow the vatican. For example in Hungary ruled Transilvania, the Romanian majority that were Orthodox were third class citizens in their own lands because of their faith. So you had situations were they would come into the Orthodox Church and say "Listen you can keep all your rituals and most of your theology, but just give the pope a mention during the service and we'll leave you alone for the most part."
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  20. #20

    Default Re: Orthodox Christianity: Who We Are and What We Believe

    Hi all,

    Orthodoxy, IMHO, is more correct than Protestantism!

    Reason:

    Orthodoxy has held to certain key tenets for longer and with greater consistency than Protestantism.

    However:

    Just because a body of believers who call themselves "Orthodox" and who've held key tenets were others have gone astray, doesn't make them more scripturally correct.

    Hence, the need to re-examine why we believe what we believe.

    Ex. Priests are only men.
    Scripture: You (men and women) are a kingdom of priests: I Peter

    ALL of god's people are "ministers" which in greek means "workers," that's it.
    No hierarchy, just brothers and sisters in the Lord who recognize each others gifts and callings.

    hellas1

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