'No evidence' of plans by Stalin to attack Germany

[Ebusitanus]

'No evidence' of plans by Stalin to attack Germany

17:3701/09/2009

MOSCOW, September 1 (RIA Novosti) - There is no evidence suggesting that Joseph Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany in the 1930s-40s, a Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) official said on Tuesday.

Maj. Gen. Lev Sotskov, who compiled a collection of recently declassified documents, entitled Polish Policy Secrets: 1935-45, told a news conference hosted by RIA Novosti that the Soviet General Staff had "never received any orders to start planning an operation against Germany."

"No such plans were ever developed," he said.

The collection includes Polish foreign and domestic policy reviews, letters and briefs from Polish ambassadors and military attaches, and a selection of telegrams from Polish diplomatic missions. It is timed to coincide with the 70th anniversary of the outbreak of World War II, which began with Germany's attack on Poland on September 1, 1939.

Sotskov said that declassification of the documents would help improve Polish-Russian relations.

Asked about Poland's foreign policy ahead of World War II, he said "Poland could have done much more to help create a collective security system."

He added that historical clarity could not harm Russia's relations with Poland, pointing out that Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin had just arrived in the former Warsaw Pact country to attend international events in Gdansk to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the start of WWII.

Moscow has been angered by attempts to challenge the Soviet Union's role in the war, which claimed the lives of 27 million Soviet nationals, according to official figures. Ex-Soviet states, including Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic countries, view Stalin's Soviet Union as an aggressor.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090901/155987774.html

Ridiculous excuses and 'justifications' for Operation Barbarossa can now help to be put to rest.

[Mangalore]

...
Ridiculous excuses and 'justifications' for Operation Barbarossa can now help to be put to rest.

The possible bias of the source aside among sane people it was never an excuse because Nazi germany obviously did not set Barbarossa in motion based on the knowledge of an attack underway, but at best knowing and believing Nazis and Soviets can never be friends and will fight at some point.

The scenario of a Soviet invasion plan was mainly speculated on among historians as a possible reason why the Red army got so badly mauled when the Wehrmacht attacked, assuming that they were reforming their positions to possible attack positions and thus being completely unprepared to deal with a German onslaught at the time because that's what they wanted to do.

[conon394]

The scenario of a Soviet invasion plan was mainly speculated on among historians as a possible reason why the Red army got so badly mauled when the Wehrmacht attacked, assuming that they were reforming their positions to possible attack positions and thus being completely unprepared to deal with a German onslaught at the time because that's what they wanted to do.

Although it also struck me as more logical to see the Red army simply advancing it defensive positions to that reflected the westward advance of Soviet territory. Thus when Barbarossa occurred the Red army was hung out to dry its old better establish defense was abandoned and its positions were more or less barley set up yet.

[Poach]

I was always under the impression that everyone already knew Stalin didn't want to start a war with Germany, and was simply using the treaties he made to buy time in order to prepare himself for the war that Germany was very likely to start once France was finished with?

The reason for the Red Army being so badly outmatched in the early days was because of Stalin's purges and the political officers constantly interfering in military matters, no?

[Dr. Croccer]

Stalin probably had ideas about invading Germany, but no advanced plans, and certainly not in 1941. The Red Army was horribly disorganised and the army was going through modernisation and reforms which would be completed by '43 or so. I seriously doubt that Stalin had any plans of an invasion of Germany, ideas of a war or possible invasion of Germany, perhaps, but no serious attempt to make advanced plans. The positions taken by the Red Army by 1941 were hardly done for an offensive either.

[ivan_the_terrible]

Stalin's actions throughout his 'career' focus quite heavily on the 'socialism in one country' idea - much to the dislike of other prominent revolutionaries and party members, who wanted a more active attempt to bring about foreign revolutions.

Invading Germany would not fit in with the rest of Stalin's behaviour, so it's not very surprising there's no evidence of invasion plans.

[Ebusitanus]

Stalin's actions throughout his 'career' focus quite heavily on the 'socialism in one country' idea - much to the dislike of other prominent revolutionaries and party members, who wanted a more active attempt to bring about foreign revolutions.

Invading Germany would not fit in with the rest of Stalin's behaviour, so it's not very surprising there's no evidence of invasion plans.

I would not call Stalin´s Soviet international intervention up to that point as "one country". He was heavy in Spain, he did swallow the Baltic states, war with Finland, border problems with Romania, joint invasion of Poland or his war with Japan in 1938.

[ivan_the_terrible]

I would not call Stalin´s Soviet international intervention up to that point as "one country". He was heavy in Spain, he did swallow the Baltic states, war with Finland, border problems with Romania, joint invasion of Poland or his war with Japan in 1938.

Interevention in neighbouring states was done with security in mind. Further abroad, Stalin was nearly always ready to sacrifice the revolution in exchange for western favours. As part of such deals, he not only didn't help the revolutions abroad, but sometimes actually hindered them. For example, he even had some prominent revolutionaries assassinated in Spain and Greece. Similarly, he was ready to negotiate over Yugoslavia, though this wasn't so straight-forward because they were doing their own thing quite successfully.

[Bwaho]

The reason for the Red Army being so badly outmatched in the early days was because of Stalin's purges and the political officers constantly interfering in military matters, no?

The emplacement of the soviet troops also comes into question. As it has already been said in this thread, it is believed that the reason the soviets got mauled at the start of Barbarossa was because they weren't deployed defensively.

[Wolf68]

Ridiculous excuses and 'justifications' for Operation Barbarossa can now help to be put to rest

Yeah for sure because Russians told us so. We are to believe the same people who for 50 years denied existence of secret protocol of Ribbentrop -Molotov pact and claimed that Katyn was Nazis' doing.
Interesting discussion of this subject found on this forum:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...27#post2383427

[TeutonicCrusader]

There is no need for another reason than the name: Stalinism.

[Odovacar]

As far as I know those plans existed. Although they were made by Tuhatchevsky, who was executed by Stalin.

[Ebusitanus]

For example, he even had some prominent revolutionaries assassinated in Spain...

He actively hunted down Troskists and helped in destroying in 1937 the Troskist party "POUM" and the anarchists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Nin

[ivan_the_terrible]

He actively hunted down Troskists and helped in destroying in 1937 the Troskist party "POUM" and the anarchists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Nin

Yes, that too. The point I was trying to make is that different factions within the party had different views as to what the USSR's role in bringing about a world revolution should be, and Stalin was much more isolationist-leaning than others.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Stalin was a paranoid Phychopath who killed all of his generals who could of possibly formed any sorta of invasion plan in the first place.

[0N3]

Stalin was a paranoid Phychopath who killed all of his generals who could of possibly formed any sorta of invasion plan in the first place.

Yes, he killed ALL of them. It really didn't take long for the soviet army to recover as shown in WW2 + a few of those he killed must have had some rebellious intensions, even if many were innocently killed.

[Wolf68]

Stalin was a paranoid Phychopath who killed all of his generals who could of possibly formed any sorta of invasion plan in the first place

Hitler purges of NSDAP didn't make that party weaker, on the contrary...Zhukov and Timoshenko were quite capable to draw plans for their offensive (pre emptive?) strike against Germany in May 1941. While analysing Stalin's diplomatic maneuverings and wartime direction of internal security and military affair from Soviet perspective, I can't see any signs of madness.

[ivan_the_terrible]

While analysing Stalin's diplomatic maneuverings and wartime direction of internal security and military affair from Soviet perspective, I can't see any signs of madness.

This is very true. He may have been paranoid domestically, but diplomatically he was quite logical and cautious. I would even say reactionary.

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

Russia is evil and it would've attacked!

Mister Americans you don't know nothing about Russia.

[Wolf68]

This is very true. He may have been paranoid domestically, but diplomatically he was quite logical and cautious. I would even say reactionary.

Exactly - I would even say that Stalin was not even a committed Communist, in the ideological sense, my guess he simply tried to rebulit Tsar's empire within pre 1914 borders. As a leader he was superior in cleverness, rationality, emotional stability, international politics when compared with Hitler.