america forgot history

[total relism]

Anyone who is interested in american history the declaration of independance or the constitution should check these out.
There is much about our cristian heritage that is left out of our school textbooks. The myth of seperation of church and state is delt with as well as how far we have stray from our founding fathers and many other subjects. Cristanity use to be the center piece of america and was encoraged by the founding fathers in public school but not any more lern about our forgot history here



http://www.wallbuilders.com/ home web page

http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/ahs.html very highly recomended for anyone intersted

http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product115.html this also

http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product213.html

also look at page 3 for some examples of what im saying almost half way down. first 2 pages are mostley off topic.

than page 7 in between off topic again

[conon394]

Odd though you know the way the Constitution explicitly appeals to the people to ordain the document huh?

I'm not denying that most if not all the Framers were some form of Christian or Christian influenced deist or such but that does not make them equal the to an assertion they would oppose separation of church and state.

The quotes section is a grab bag of unconnected elements that prove nothing... I mean Alexander Hamilton's death bed confessions??? What does that say about separation of Church and State nothing - just his personal faith.

edit: also the quotes cherry pick - again the note on Hamilton's ideal about christian constitutional societies for example. At best a barely formed ideal that can hardly be taken out of context. At the time Jefferson was under fire for french sympathies and alleged (in the most viscous attacks) atheism. One could get a different picture of Hamilton by picking quotes from earlier in his career when he a plenty of disparaging things to say about priests and organized religion.

[total relism]

Odd though you know the way the Constitution explicitly appeals to the people to ordain the document huh?

I'm not denying that most if not all the Framers were some form of Christian or Christian influenced deist or such but that does not make them equal the to an assertion they would oppose separation of church and state.

The quotes section is a grab bag of unconnected elements that prove nothing... I mean Alexander Hamilton's death bed confessions??? What does that say about separation of Church and State nothing - just his personal faith.

edit: also the quotes cherry pick - again the note on Hamilton's ideal about christian constitutional societies for example. At best a barely formed ideal that can hardly be taken out of context. At the time Jefferson was under fire for french sympathies and alleged (in the most viscous attacks) atheism. One could get a different picture of Hamilton by picking quotes from earlier in his career when he a plenty of disparaging things to say about priests and organized religion.

but that does not make them equal the to an assertion they would oppose separation of church and state.






nowere in the constitution does it say seperation of church and state. here is the first amendment. it was here to stop goverment from atacking religon and getting it out of the public and goverment run systems




Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.




The quotes section is a grab bag of unconnected elements that prove nothing... I mean Alexander Hamilton's death bed confessions??? What does that say about separation of Church and State nothing - just his personal faith.





If you put there words actions and wishes together with the constitution and declaration of independance its imposible to ignore there faith and what they wanted for this country. Seperation of church and state was mentioned once by thomas jeferson in a letter to the danbury baptist church in connecticut. It has no foundings in any goverment writings and it was taken out of context used against religon later on.
The letter jeferson wrote was to show that the goverment was not alowed to control religon and that there was no seperation . So it is the anti-cristians using words out of context. The only reason it may sound weird hering them is because there not in goverment textbooks



http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123 here is were the saying seperation of church and state came from



http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=63 from there own words telling how important it was that cristanity was in goverment







edit: also the quotes cherry pick - again the note on Hamilton's ideal about christian constitutional societies for example. At best a barely formed ideal that can hardly be taken out of context. At the time Jefferson was under fire for french sympathies and alleged (in the most viscous attacks) atheism. One could get a different picture of Hamilton by picking quotes from earlier in his career when he a plenty of disparaging things to say about priests and organized religion.[/QUOTE






so what are you saying because at one time hamilton may not have been cristian that that is not what the founders wanted for the country? what about the time when it was written? what the framers of our country wanted. were are the things hamilton said bad about cristanity? i would like to see them not that i dont belive you but i am interested in this stuff


jeferson was a cristian though he was one of the least religous of the founders. He wrote his own version of the bible. he used goverment money to spread cristainity to the native americans

his own words

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755#FN66">66
I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.<A href="http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755#FN67">67


how can this be taken out of context?


the list of qoutes is just a small of examples



http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/ahs.html you could lern alot if your interested in this stuff goes through all the founding fathers and what they wanted and said regerding the goverment and cristanity

[Odovacar]

Please. This is a good topic. Just doesn't turn it into another creationist vs. atheists debate, this is just history.
As a matter of fact the role of religion in politics and society is a very well researched issue lately and one the hot spots of 18-19th century...

[Dr. Croccer]

From what I know it was pretty divided. Jefferson had Atheistic sympathies IIRC.

[CtrlAltDe1337]

From what I know it was pretty divided. Jefferson had Atheistic sympathies IIRC.

He as a deist. But bear in mind that he promoted the conversion of the Indians and (afaik) printed Bibles with government money. So I'd say he was much more Christian than many Christian politicians today...

Separation of Church and State had a different meaning when it was first proposed. It merely meant that there would be no state sponsored church, the whole thing about keeping religion out of schools came much later in our history, and was not even much of an issue early on.

yep.

Well, the last time a fundamental Christian force held major influence over nations was pre-Renaissance Europe, feel free to read up on it. You'll find it was pretty backward, and advances flourished once the power of the Church had diminished. Fundamental Christianity is just as bad a fundamental Islam, there's nothing inherently superior about Christianity.

Please read up on your history before you say something like that

[Poach]

Please read up on your history before you say something like that

The political instability and the downfall of urban life had a strong, negative impact on the cultural life of the continent. The Catholic Church, being the only institution to survive the process, maintained what was left of intellectual strength, especially through monasticism. Until the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance, Western Europe, excepting the Muslim lands, would lag far behind the scientific knowledge of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine, Empire and the Muslim empires.

Fair use of what intelligence was left I see, especially doing so through monasticism.

By the year 1000 AD, western Europe remained a scientific backwater compared to certain other civilizations, including those of Christian Byzantium, and the Islamic world.

The cultural scenario started to change after the Reconquista and during the Crusades, as interaction with the Arabs brought Europeans into contact with ancient Greek, Roman/Byzantine and Arabic manuscripts.

Added to these points, no less than nine attempted invasions of the Middle East were staged by Europe at large at the behest of the Church, not to mention Church sanctioned Crusades in the Baltic area and the Cathar Crusade. Further to this, the foundation of an entire order (Dominican) purely in the interest of finding and convicting enemies of the Church (heretics) and the classification as the Early and High Middle Ages (I understand that today most people have accepted that the Late Middle Ages are excepted from this term) as the "Dark Ages" all show a backwardness.

You may have assumed I meant that Science in Europe was stone cold dead under the authority of the Church, this was not my intention, I was merely saying that Europe as a whole was a rather backward place in those days and the Church played a part in this by maintining their "cultural monopoly", if you will.

[total relism]

Fair use of what intelligence was left I see, especially doing so through monasticism.





Added to these points, no less than nine attempted invasions of the Middle East were staged by Europe at large at the behest of the Church, not to mention Church sanctioned Crusades in the Baltic area and the Cathar Crusade. Further to this, the foundation of an entire order (Dominican) purely in the interest of finding and convicting enemies of the Church (heretics) and the classification as the Early and High Middle Ages (I understand that today most people have accepted that the Late Middle Ages are excepted from this term) as the "Dark Ages" all show a backwardness.

You may have assumed I meant that Science in Europe was stone cold dead under the authority of the Church, this was not my intention, I was merely saying that Europe as a whole was a rather backward place in those days and the Church played a part in this by maintining their "cultural monopoly", if you will.

I just wanted to mention somthing on the crusades


Many atheists point to the Crusades, Inquisition and witch hunts to argue that Christianity is an evil religion. D’Souza takes on these allegations one by one. He argues that the Muslims were the aggressors; conquering the previously predominately Christian Middle East. They went on to conquer parts of Africa, Asia, part of Italy and most of Spain. All the while, they forced conversions at sword-point. Finally, more than two hundred years later Christians attempted to take back the land that was conquered by the Muslims. The First Crusade was a success, resulting in Jerusalem being in Christian possession for nearly a century. Subsequent crusades failed, but without the crusades, D’Souza argues

‘Western Civilization might have been completely overrun by the forces of Islam … The Christians fought to defend themselves from foreign conquest, while the Muslims fought to continue conquering Christian lands’




cristains were just defending themselves from murder forced conversion and rape


and yes there are many people who are cristains who do bad things that doesn't mean that cristanity is a bad influence . Also many left the Catholic church because it was turning into a business and they were not following what the bible teaches.



also i could say hitler and stalin were atheist and they killed millions therefore every country should be run by cristians but that does not make sence so i would not say that

[Poach]

I just wanted to mention somthing on the crusades

To begin with, that doesn't even begin to deal with the inquisition, which was more like a secret police force, getting rid of undesirables.

As for the Crusades, self-defence? Not a chance, before I even begin I can tell you the Levant was Jewish before anything else, it was never a Christian domian until the Kingdom of Jerusalem, which was after this "war of self-defense".

The First Crusade began when the Byzantine Empire asked the Church for help in fighting the Turks who were conquering parts of the Byzantine Empire (and not in a Jihad, for settlement), the Pope issued a call to arms and conventiently used the forced conversion and denial of pilgrims as a tool to demonise Islam and motivate the nobles of Europe to action. The result was far greater than he expected, with whole armies from peasant right up to prince mobilising to march on Jerusalem. Not started as an act of self-defence in the face of Islamic attacks.

Islam, at the time, was actually by and large a very forward looking, liberal religion and the majority of Islamic rulers freely allowed Jews and Christians to live under their rule in peace. I'd like to see some sources on these "persections" of yours. In Al-Andalus, the largest Christian population conquered and placed under Muslim rule, Christians and Jews were protected by law from discrimination, and many sects of Christianity deemed heretical in Catholic Europe flourished under Muslim rule. The only "persecution", if you can even call it that, Christians and Jews faced was that all healthy males (women, children, the disabled and old men were exempted from this, such barbarism, isn't it?) had to pay 1 dinar a year to the authorities. So much for defending themselves against rape, execution and forced conversion, eh?

Edit: I would like to add, as I missed your last post, that there is no such thing as an "atheist government". I challenge you to find any instance in history where people were killed specifically in the name of atheism, you won't find any. The age old claim that "atheist" governments kill is utter rubbish, the policies of Stalin and Hitler that caused such death had nothing at all to do with religious matters (and before you claim this one, I'll tell you here and now Hitler didn not kill the Jews for being Jewish, he did so as he felt their kind had caused Germany to lose the Great War by backstabbing the German State). Concentrate on the matter at hand, please, stop trying to distract the discussion by attempting to slant perceived threats.

[ivan_the_terrible]

From what I know it was pretty divided. Jefferson had Atheistic sympathies IIRC.

Jefferson was full of contradictions in many ways though...

I admit, I don't know much about his religious beliefs, but it wouldn't surprise me if he had sympathies both ways.

[Old_Scratch]

I also can assemble a pastiche of quotes that shows the exact opposite of what you're saying.

The Christian God is a being of terrific character- cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust
-Thomas Jefferson

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone upon man
-Thomas Jefferson

During fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been it its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolences in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution
-James Madison

Lighthouses are more useful than churches
-Benjamin Franklin

This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it
-John Adams

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how it has happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed
-John Adams


And here we have a bit from the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted by George Washington himself.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitian nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of harmony between the two countries.

[total relism]

I also can assemble a pastiche of quotes that shows the exact opposite of what you're saying.

The Christian God is a being of terrific character- cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust
-Thomas Jefferson

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone upon man
-Thomas Jefferson

During fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been it its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolences in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution
-James Madison

Lighthouses are more useful than churches
-Benjamin Franklin

This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it
-John Adams

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how it has happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed
-John Adams


And here we have a bit from the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted by George Washington himself.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitian nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of harmony between the two countries.

were are you geting these from? i find them hard to belive the resources im going from we have the orginal writings from the acual people

[Old_Scratch]

were are you geting these from? i find them hard to belive the resources im going from we have the orginal writings from the acual people

I don't have time at the moment to source the rest of them, but you can see the Treaty of Tripoli here. Read article 11. I'll source the others as time permits.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Poach]

Please, good friends from across the pond, don't give your christian fundamentalists more influence in your government, you'll end up as backward as some of the more extreme Islamic states.

[total relism]

Please, good friends from across the pond, don't give your Christian fundamentalists more influence in your government, you'll end up as backward as some of the more extreme Islamic states.

without what you call Christian fundamentalis there would be no american republic thats what im saying. Im saying that was the orginal intent of the people who made this country and now we have gone so far from our beginings.
Also by your good friends not giving cristanity influence they are ending up backwards from what the founders of america wanted.
Islamic run goverments are nothing like goverments based on cristanity tell me how more Cristian influence would end up like a islamic goverment?



part of declaration of independance

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it and to institute new government


this is the basic laws of a republic freedom how is this like a islamic goverment? they couldent be further apart

[danzig]

without what you call Christian fundamentalis there would be no american republic thats what im saying. Im saying that was the orginal intent of the people who made this country and now we have gone so far from our beginings.

Even if this was true (and its not) christian "fundamentalist" of that era would have nada, zero, nothing to do with what exist today. Christianity and its influence on the US shouldnt be ignored and should be covered, that much Ill agree with you but to say it was the foundation of the intent of founding fathers is pure nonsense. Many of them were deist or what can be called agnostic at best, likewise suggesting they were atheist is equal nonsense.

Hell if anything we should take a page from their book that allowed people of various different beliefs on god, uncertainly of his existences or importance to come to an agreement on something. That they could sit there, not insult each others specific beliefs and come to a common agreement. We could learn alot from that today, on both sides of the fence.

[total relism]

Even if this was true (and its not)



give me evidence this is not true i can give you evidence that it is from there own writings and lives
http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/ahs.html

http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product115.html





Christian "fundamentalist" of that era would have nada, zero, nothing to do with what exist today.



thats kinda what I'm saying we have gone so far off from what the founding fathers wanted for this country and from the Constitution and declaration of Independence and Christianity in the public schools government etc.





Christianity and its influence on the US shouldn't be ignored and should be covered, that much Ill agree with you but to say it was the foundation of the intent of founding fathers is pure nonsense.



i was saying without Cristian's there would be no united states republic the way it was created they were most if not all Cristian. Many of our basic system comes from the bible and Christianity the republican form of government comes from the bible.





Many of them were deist or what can be called agnostic at best, likewise suggesting they were atheist is equal nonsense.



the overwhelming amount of founders were members of Cristian churches many were theologians. what evidence do you have that many were deist or agnostic? a few were yes like Franklin i think but most Cristian




Hell if anything we should take a page from their book that allowed people of various different beliefs on god,


yes this is true because they said Christianity is true so everyone has the right to come to this country and here the Gospel and that we should not be afraid to here other religions if we believe Christianity to be true. Ill look for the founding father who said this i think Noah Webster but not sure


uncertainly of his existences or importance to come to an agreement on something. That they could sit there, not insult each others specific beliefs and come to a common agreement. We could learn allot from that today, on both sides of the fence.

not sure what your saying we should have religious debate i think this is good as well


a reply to conon 394

In any case you site does the same again the deathbed confessions of a mortally wounded Hamilton hardly speak to his feeling about prayer in school or hanging the 10 commandments in courts




i know but i recommended this http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/product115.html and this http://www.wallbuilders.com/store/ahs.html

this will give you the full intension's of our founders why was it that pray was accepted in public school until 1960s? or that the 10 commandments were in our nations capital? and in all courts at the beginning. the original supreme court has the 10 commandments on its doors as well as 40 little ones around were the judge sits.
today you can see in Washington moses holding the ten commandments outside the white house but they'll tell you its Thomas Jefferson holding the Constitution ask them why its written in Hebrew.






That does not prevent the fact that the list of quotes offered up by your link say nothing really except most of of the framers were Christians or deists (influenced by Christianity) of one sort or another. That does not mean they expected the US to be a formally Christian nation where the government supported in an active way that agenda.



you guys gotta give up on the quotes if your interested look at the other things i referenced for the full picture. the quotes were just a example





Again it hard not to notice the absolute absence of Christianity in the constituon...

and really this is rich

"President Jefferson even closed presidential documents with “In the year of our Lord Christ”

No - really? Guess he knew latin unlike most people who blindly use AD with the faintest ideal of what it means...[/QUOTE]




the constitution was founded by Cristian's on biblical principals it was not a sermon

[Poach]

Well, the last time a fundamental Christian force held major influence over nations was pre-Renaissance Europe, feel free to read up on it. You'll find it was pretty backward, and advances flourished once the power of the Church had diminished. Fundamental Christianity is just as bad a fundamental Islam, there's nothing inherently superior about Christianity.

I'm no expert, but I don't recall the War of Independence starting for religious reasons.

[total relism]

Well, the last time a fundamental Christian force held major influence over nations was pre-Renaissance Europe, feel free to read up on it. You'll find it was pretty backward, and advances flourished once the power of the Church had diminished. Fundamental Christianity is just as bad a fundamental Islam, there's nothing inherently superior about Christianity.

I'm no expert, but I don't recall the War of Independence starting for religious reasons.

Well, the last time a fundamental Christian force held major influence over nations was pre-Renaissance Europe, feel free to read up on it. You'll find it was pretty backward





what do you mean by backwards? do you mean killings? power control of goverment forcing the population to do there wants? these are unbiblical forms of goverment run by kings monarchy etc during the old testament god told Israel not to have kings they wanted a king but god gave them a electorate system a republican form of goverment. thomas paine wrote much on this and early america understood this very well
also athist goverments have killed over 100 times the amount of people in one century than Cristian goverments did during 5 century's of control during pre-renaissance in europe as shown here
http://creation.com/review-whats-so-great-about-christianity-dsouza






and advances flourished once the power of the Church had diminished.





how so technology? almost all major advancement's in science were started by Christians


http://creation.com/what-good-is-christianity





Fundamental Christianity is just as bad a fundamental Islam, there's nothing inherently superior about Christianity.





this was not about opinions about what was better just what was meant to be you dont like the founding fathers ideas thats fine but it dosent make them not so. I would have to ask how you came to this belief that islam and Christianity are the same in anyway? I have studied both i see nothing that would suggest there the same or that there goverments are the same as early america.




I'm no expert, but I don't recall the War of Independence starting for religious reasons.[/QUOTE




this is actually a big reason at the time england was trying to institute a one religion denomination by the government on Americans


they believed england was violating our god given rights. again look at the material on my first link if interested. The declaration of Independence itself was written first by 2 pastors

[total relism]

, and advances flourished once the power of the Church had diminished. Fundamental Christianity is just as bad a fundamental Islam, there's nothing inherently superior about Christianity.
.

90% of all scientifc discoveries in the world have been made by cristians


http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/index.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam101/