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    Ebusitanus's Avatar Senator
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    Default Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    http://premier.gov.ru/eng/events/3514.html

    Vladimir Putin's Open Letter to the Polish People

    We are already seventy years away from the tragedy that occurred on one dark day in the history of civilization - 1 September 1939 - the outbreak of the most disastrous and slaughterous war that Europe and the entire humanity have ever lived through.

    Invited by Donald Tusk, Polish Prime Minister, to take part in the commemoration of the 70th anniversary of the Second World War, I did not hesitate to accept the invitation, I could not do otherwise: because the war took a heavy toll of 27 million lives of my compatriots, and every Russian family keeps both the sorrow of loss and the honor of the Great Victory, while each successive generation takes over the pride in their fathers and grandfathers fighting in the battlefield; because Russia and Poland were allies in that righteous battle. And we - people living today - ought to be moral enough to bow our heads to the fallen and praise the courage and firmness of the people from various countries who fought and eventually smashed the Nazi.

    The twentieth century inflicted deep, non-healing wounds - revolutions, coups, two World Wars, the Nazi occupation of the bulk of Europe and the Holocaust tragedy, as well as the ideological divide in the continent. However, the European memory retains also the victorious May of 1945, the Helsinki Act, the demolition of the Berlin Wall, the tremendous democratic changes in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe at the turn of the 1990s.

    All of the above are the elements of our intrinsic common history. No judge can give a totally unbiased verdict on what was in the past. And no country can boast of having avoided tragedies, dramatic turning points or state decisions having nothing to do with high morals. If we are eager to have peaceful and happy future, we must draw lessons from history. However, exploiting memory, anatomizing history and seeking pretexts for mutual complaints and resentment causes a lot of harm and proves lack of responsibility.

    Half-truth is always a deceit. The past tragedies - not fully comprehended or interpreted in a double-minded or hypocritical manner - inevitably lead to new historic and political phobias, which result in collisions between States and peoples and affect the public consciousness distorting it for the benefit of unfair politicians.

    The canvas of history is not a third-rate copy which can be roughly retouched or, following customer's orders, modified by the addition of bright of dark tints. Unfortunately, such attempts to rehash the past are quite common today. We witness the efforts to tailor history to the immediate political needs. Some countries went even further, making the Nazi accomplices heroes, placing victims on a par with executioners and liberators - with occupants.

    Individual episodes are taken out of the general historical background, political and economic context or military and strategic considerations. The situation in Europe prior to the Second World War is considered fragmentarily, regardless of the cause-and-effect relationship. It is indicative that history is often slanted by those who actually apply double standards in modern politics.

    One cannot help but wonder to what extend such myths-makers differ from the authors of the memorable "Brief Course of Russian History" published in the Stalin period, where all names or events uncomfortable to the "leader of all nations" would be erased and stereotyped and completely ideology-based versions of reality would be imposed.

    Thus, today we are expected to admit without any hesitation that the only "trigger" of the Second World War was the Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939. However, those who advocate such a position neglect simple things - did not the Treaty of Versailles which drew the bottom line of the First World War leave a lot of "time bombs", the main of which was not only the registered defeat of Germany but also its humiliation. Did not the borders in Europe begin to crumble much earlier than 1 September 1939? What about the Anschluss of Austria and Czechoslovakia being torn to pieces, when not only Germany, but also Hungary and Poland in fact took part in the territorial repartition of Europe. On the very day when the Munich Agreement was concluded, Poland send its ultimatum to Czechoslovakia and its army invaded Cieszyn and Freistadt regions concurrently with the German troops.

    And is it possible to turn a blind eye to the backstage attempts of Western democracies to "buy off" Hitler and redirect his aggression "eastwards" and to the systematic and generally tolerated removal of security safeguards and arms restrictious system in Europe?

    Finally, what was the military and political echo of the collusion that took place in Munich on 29 September 1938? Maybe it was then when Hitler finally decided that "everything was allowed". That neither France nor England would "lift a finger" to protect their allies. "The strange war" on the Western front and the tragic fate of Poland left without help demonstrated, regrettably, that his hopes were met.

    There is no doubt that one can have all the reasons to condemn the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact concluded in August of 1939. But a year before, in Munich, France and England signed a well-known treaty with Hitler and thus destroyed all the hope for a united front to fight fascism.

    Today, we understand that any kind of collusion with the Nazi regime was morally unacceptable and had no prospects of practical implementation. However, in the context of the historical events of that time, the Soviet Union not only remained face to face with Germany (since the Western States had rejected the proposed system of collective security) but also faced the threat of waging war on two fronts, because precisely in August of 1939 the flame of the conflict with Japan on the Halkin-Gol river reached its highest.

    The Soviet diplomacy was quite right at that time to consider it, at least, unwise to reject Germany's proposal to sign the Non-Aggression Pact when USSR's potential allies in the West had already made similar agreements with the German Reich and did not want to cooperate with the Soviet Union, as well as to be confronted with the Nazi allmighty military machine alone.

    I believe that it is the Munich Agreement that led to disunity among the natural allies in the fight against the Nazis and made them distrust and suspect each other. While looking back at the past, it is necessary for all of us, both in Western and Eastern Europe, to remember what tragedies can result from cowardice, behind-the-scenes and armchair politics, as well as from seeking to ensure security and national interests at the expense of others. There cannot be reasonable and responsible politics without a moral and legal framework.

    In my view, the moral aspect of policies pursued is particularly important. In this regard, I would like to remind you that our country's parliament unambiguously assessed the immorality of the Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact. This has not been the case so far in some other States, though they also made very controversial decisions in the 1930s.

    And there is another lesson to be drawn from history. All experience of the prewar period - from the Versailles Peace Conference to the beginning of the Second World War - provides strong evidence that it is impossible to set up an efficient system of collective security without involvement of all countries of the continent, including Russia.

    I am sure that Europe is able to give a joint impartial assessment of our common tragic past and to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Therefore, we cannot but be encouraged by the fact that the international history conference held in Warsaw in May with the participation of many Russian, Polish and German historians provided a lot of balanced and unbiased assessments of the causes of the Second World War.

    For the peoples of the Soviet Union, Poland and other countries it was a war waged for survival, for the right to have one's own culture, language and future itself. We remember all those who fought together with the Soviet people. We remember the Poles who were the first to oppose the aggressor, defended courageously Warsaw and fortifications at Westerplatte in September of 1939 and after that fought in the ranks of the Anders Army, the Polish Army, squads of the Army Kraiova and the People's Army. We remember the Americans, British, French, Canadians and other fighters of the second front who were liberating Western Europe. We remember the Germans who did not fear repression and offered resistance to Hitler's regime.

    Establishment of the Anti-Hitler Coalition is, without exaggeration, a turning point in the history of the 20th century, one of the most important and determining events of the previous century. The world saw that countries and peoples, despite all their differences, diverse national aspirations, tactical discords were able to stand united for the sake of the future, for the sake of countering the global evil. And today, when we are united by the common values, we simply must take advantage of this experience of partnership to counter efficiently common challenges and threats, to widen the global space of cooperation, to get rid of such anachronisms as the dividing lines - whatever their nature may be.

    It is obvious that the recurrent heritage of confrontation of the Cold War era and narrow bloc-based approaches to the key problems of our times do not in any way fit in such a logic. A truly democratic multipolar world requires strengthened humanistic principles in international relations and implies rejection of xenophobia and attempts to be above the law.

    But, at the same time, we may say that Europe and the world as a whole are moving towards a greater security for all, towards understanding of all the importance of working together, towards cooperation, and not to more discords.

    The historic post-war reconciliation of France and Germany opened the way to the establishment of the European Union. At the same time, the wisdom and generosity of Russian and German peoples, as well as the foresight of statesmen of the two countries, made it possible to take a determining step towards building the Big Europe. The partnership of Russia and Germany has become an example of moving towards each other and of aspiration for the future with care for the memory of the past. And today, the Russian-German cooperation plays a major positive role in international and European politics. I am sure that Russian-Polish relations will, sooner or later, come to such high level, to the level of genuine partners. It is in the interests of our peoples and of the whole European continent.

    We are deeply grateful that Poland, the land where more than 600 thousand soldiers of the Red Army lie, those who gave their lives for its liberation, shows care and respect to our military burial places. Believe me, these words are not simply for the record, they are sincere and heartfelt.

    The people of Russia, whose destiny was crippled by the totalitarian regime, fully understand the sensitiveness of Poles about Katyn where thousands of Polish servicemen lie. Together we must keep alive the memory of the victims of this crime.

    Katyn and Mednoye memorials, just as the tragic fate of the Russian soldiers taken prisoners in Poland during the 1920 war, should become symbols of common grief and mutual pardon.

    Shadows of the past can no more cloud this and, all the more, the next day of cooperation between Poland and Russia. Our obligation to the past and gone, to the very history, is to do everything in order to make the Polish-Russian relations free from the burden of mistrust and prepossession, which we have inherited. To turn over the page and start writing a new one.

    Today, recalling the first day of the World War II, we are thinking about its last day - the Victory Day. We have been together during this battle for the future of mankind. It depends only on us that all the best and kind that links the peoples of Poland and Russia could be strengthened by new actions and multiplied in the new 21st century that has already come.

    It is important that such logic, a constructive one, is beginning to emerge in the Polish-Russian relations. After the unreasonably long pause, the key mechanisms of bilateral dialogue resumed their work both at the state and public levels. The bilateral contacts are developing, cultural, educational and other humanitarian exchanges are increasing.

    2008 was successful for the trade and economic ties between our countries - the mutual trade increased by more than one and half times. Under current complicated conditions of the global crisis we intend to exert every effort in order to overcome the influence of the unfavorable world business environment and start new promising projects. Those could embrace energy, transport, investments in industry, agriculture and infrastructure. To put it plainly, the promising perspectives for the partner work, for building relationships worthy of the two great European nations are opening before Poland and Russia.

    In conclusion, I would like to extend the warmest wishes to all Polish people and, first of all, to the veterans of the Second World War of peace, happiness and prosperity.
    http://premier.gov.ru/eng/events/3514.html

    I love it how the Russians can rewrite history and get away with it. Russia and Germany both invaded Poland, Poland and Russia weren't allies.

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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    You're right, but I still agree with what Putin said about the Munich Agreement.
    Knowledge is a deadly friend, if no one sets the rules. The fate of all mankind I see, is in the hands of fools - King Crimson's Epitaph.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebusitanus View Post
    http://premier.gov.ru/eng/events/3514.html


    http://premier.gov.ru/eng/events/3514.html

    I love it how the Russians can rewrite history and get away with it. Russia and Germany both invaded Poland, Poland and Russia weren't allies.
    Yeah, it is clearly a rewriting of history.. Man, Poland and Russia WERE allies, later on in the war (many Polish divisions fought in the Red Army). And to be honest, the only reason the Polish people is still alive today, is because of the Red Army winning the war, thus saving them (1/3 of the Polish population were killed in just 6 years, and the Nazis were only starting to focus on the Poles later on in the war..).

    That is an undeniable, historical fact. Live with it.

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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Yeah, it is clearly a rewriting of history.. Man, Poland and Russia WERE allies, later on in the war (many Polish divisions fought in the Red Army). And to be honest, the only reason the Polish people is still alive today, is because of the Red Army winning the war, thus saving them (1/3 of the Polish population were killed in just 6 years, and the Nazis were only starting to focus on the Poles later on in the war..).

    That is an undeniable, historical fact. Live with it.
    what about the Warsaw Uprising though? lol, the Red Army could have easily helped the Polish rebels but they didn't
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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Yeah, it is clearly a rewriting of history.. Man, Poland and Russia WERE allies, later on in the war (many Polish divisions fought in the Red Army). And to be honest, the only reason the Polish people is still alive today, is because of the Red Army winning the war, thus saving them (1/3 of the Polish population were killed in just 6 years, and the Nazis were only starting to focus on the Poles later on in the war..).

    That is an undeniable, historical fact. Live with it.
    Shame though that the Poles serving with the western allies weren't as well regarded by Stalin as those that had served with the Red Army.

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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Shame though that the Poles serving with the western allies weren't as well regarded by Stalin as those that had served with the Red Army.
    The Polish underground were well known anti-communists.

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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    The Polish underground were well known anti-communists.
    one cannot blame them, large scale collectivisation doesn't sound very desirable....

    There is nothing with them being both anti-Communist and anti-Nazi.
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    Guderian's Duck's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    I think the best part of the Warsaw Uprising was that after the war, the Soviets got a hold of the leaders of the uprising, tried them for war crimes, and executed them.
    The Jagdpanzer IV was a tank destroyer developed against the wishes of Heinz Guderian. Its large gun and heavy frontal armor led to poor mobility and made them difficult to operate in rough terrain, leading their crews to nickname them Guderian Ente; Guderian's Duck.

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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Yeah, it is clearly a rewriting of history.. Man, Poland and Russia WERE allies, later on in the war (many Polish divisions fought in the Red Army). And to be honest, the only reason the Polish people is still alive today, is because of the Red Army winning the war, thus saving them (1/3 of the Polish population were killed in just 6 years, and the Nazis were only starting to focus on the Poles later on in the war..).

    That is an undeniable, historical fact. Live with it.
    Poland and Soviet Union were never allies.In fact Soviet Union with Germany did invaded Poland in 1939.
    In part that soviets ocupied mass represion and deportations together with mass kilings like Katyn.Nothing different from the German Ocupied area.
    After Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 soviet partizans fougth agaisnt Polish Underground ones the situation was incrible but this happen!
    So they were never allies! What sort of ally doesnt help their ally? When Warsaw Uprising broke out why the soviets didnt help? The aswer is simple the soviets never wanted to help a organized polish resistance that could challenge their rule after the war in fact what soviets did after war was represed that resistance thousands were put in prison,deported ,killed etc.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers
    Poland and Soviet Union were never allies seams that you want to denny the obvious.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by RomanSoldier9001 View Post
    Poland and Soviet Union were never allies.In fact Soviet Union with Germany did invaded Poland in 1939.
    In part that soviets ocupied mass represion and deportations together with mass kilings like Katyn.Nothing different from the German Ocupied area.
    After Germany invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 soviet partizans fougth agaisnt Polish Underground ones the situation was incrible but this happen!
    So they were never allies! What sort of ally doesnt help their ally? When Warsaw Uprising broke out why the soviets didnt help? The aswer is simple the soviets never wanted to help a organized polish resistance that could challenge their rule after the war in fact what soviets did after war was represed that resistance thousands were put in prison,deported ,killed etc.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursed_soldiers
    Poland and Soviet Union were never allies seams that you want to denny the obvious.
    Stop trolling. The USSR is the reason there are any Poles alive today. LIVE WITH IT.

    Salvotorel, the Mayas and Incans never faced industrial level extermination, did they?? I'm not denying a few dozens of thousands of people would survive, but the Polish ethnicity would be more or less dead, even if that was the case.

    Can you give prove of that? I am not saing you are liar just like to see prove of it and read about it.
    Go to Konev's wikipedia page.
    Last edited by Nikitn; September 09, 2009 at 03:09 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    [QUOTE=Nikitn;5929996]
    Stop trolling. The USSR is the reason there are any Poles alive today. LIVE WITH IT.
    And how about the efforts of Polish Underground movement doenst that count for nothing? The reason that many poles survived is theirs too and furthmore poles had hard time when they were ocupied by germans so did when they were ocupied by soviets remember Katyn? The Cursed Soldiers if poles are independent and alive today is because of their will and strength and not because of the soviets that never care about them , being a soviet slave isnt a lot better than be a nazi slave.
    If someone is trooling is you please give me a argument not the same spam.




    Salvotorel, the Mayas and Incans never faced industrial level extermination, did they?? I'm not denying a few dozens of thousands of people would survive, but the Polish ethnicity would be more or less dead, even if that was the case.
    And the Mayans and Incans are still important today? They were extermineted and some enslaved and being enslaved isnt a lot better than being killed.

    [QUOTE=Volh Vseslavich;5931385]
    Not really. There was no fact, that conquistadors had a goal of exterminating the Natives.
    Tell that to Azetcs and Mayans that saw their cities burned,their temples destroid,their "priests" burned in stakes,their language and religion burned.

    [QUOTE=Nikitn;5932413]
    Look, destruction of native Americans took centuries, even with the diseases the Europeans brought with them. The pace of the extermination was far higher with Hitler
    In max a centurie but not centuries they were centuries ensalved but the extermanation policy was quick when spanish took cities they killed a lot of native americans ,burned temples,burned houses,burned books libaries etc. It didnt take that long. But you can not realy compared the conquistadors to the Nazis , the Nazis had trains,concentration camps, and a all complex for that purpose the conquistators had swords,horses ,canons of course it took longer.
    But if you want to compared extermanation then see the "good soviet side" that wage genocides in all Soviet Union I am not saing that Soviets were evil but since is typical to see the Nazi evil excuse for the soviets atrocides then take a look to previous 41 atrocides comited in Soviet Union were Ukranians to blame for German Invasion that happen years after? Were baltic people blame for german invasion and their atrocides ,finns,chuvash,georgians,chechens etc the list is long since many peoples lived in USSR and many times not peacefully the soviet authories used represion to crush separatist revolts for independence many times used starvation , forced labour,deporatations etc. And probaly the number of people killed is superior to the victims of nazis and I am not saing that I suport Nazism and think they were the "good guys" and soviets bad by saing this I just dont like the one version side of story that justice victor of allies over and over shows.

    Some also say that he had hooves instead of feet and that he was drinking virgin blood. After it run away to England it was not seen as a threat to Soviet interests in Poland, so he wouldn't have a need to kill them
    Well actualy I wasnt joking about this . See this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82...Sikorski#Death
    Is higly plausble that the prime-minister of Polish Goverment in Exile was ordened to be killed by Stalin he was the one that could win the more with that sitution now it proves that it was he? No but it surely gives motive and raises the doubt over a higly suspisious "accident".
    Last edited by RomanSoldier9001; September 09, 2009 at 10:49 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebusitanus View Post

    I love it how the Russians can rewrite history and get away with it. Russia and Germany both invaded Poland, Poland and Russia weren't allies.
    Where does he re-write history?


    On the contrary, he admits that the M-R Pact was immoral. Did you even read it?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Putin left out the warsaw uprising. Stalin as far as I guess had allowed the germans to wipe out the rebells.
    Also he left out Russia's role in the invasion of Poland.

    On the contrary, he admitted soviet guilt in Katyn. I think considering this was written by (allegedly) a russian leader, the tone is fairly cordial.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    As for the Warsaw uprising, it was discussed but none of you read it. The result was:
    Soviet armoured and mechanized divisions DID try to assist them, by crossing the Vistula river and trying to flank the Germans in the city. Unfortunately, it was protected by fresh German divisions of high quality, so the offensive failed. The Red Army didn't try again (why? It can be discussed, some say because the Red army had outran its supply lines in the Bagration offensive, others say because Stalin didn't want to help his enemies).

    And don't forget Konev saved Krakow from destruction, as he managed to take the city before the Germans managed to fulfil their plans of destroying it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    [QUOTE=Nikitn;5913559]
    As for the Warsaw uprising, it was discussed but none of you read it. The result was:
    Soviet armoured and mechanized divisions DID try to assist them, by crossing the Vistula river and trying to flank the Germans in the city. Unfortunately, it was protected by fresh German divisions of high quality, so the offensive failed. The Red Army didn't try again (why? It can be discussed, some say because the Red army had outran its supply lines in the Bagration offensive, others say because Stalin didn't want to help his enemies).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_...#Soviet_stance
    I think this artile higly contricts what you said there.
    "However, despite retaining positions south-east of Warsaw barely 10 km from the city center for about 40 days, the Soviets did not extend effective aid to the desperate city. The sector was held by the understrength German 73rd Infantry Division, destroyed many times on the Eastern Front and recently reconstituted"
    "The division, though weak, did not experience significant Soviet pressure during that period. "
    "In three days the Soviets gained control of the suburb, a few hundred meters from the main battle on the other side of the river, as the resistance by the German 73rd division collapsed quickly. If the Soviets had reached this stage in early August, the crossing of the river would have been easier, as the Poles then held considerable stretches of the riverfront. However, by mid-September a series of German attacks had reduced the Poles to holding one narrow stretch of the riverbank, in the district of Czerniaków. The Poles were counting on the Soviet forces to cross to the left bank where the main battle of the uprising was occurring. Though Berling's 1st Polish army did cross the river, their support from the Soviets was inadequate and the main Soviet force did not follow them.[104] One of the reasons given for the failure of the uprising was the reluctance of the Soviet Red Army to help the Resistance. On 1 August, only several hours prior to the outbreak of the uprising, the Soviet advance was halted by a direct order from the Kremlin"


    And don't forget Konev saved Krakow from destruction, as he managed to take the city before the Germans managed to fulfil their plans of destroying it.
    Can you give prove of that? I am not saing you are liar just like to see prove of it and read about it.


    I find the use of words like "immoral" in politics quite pointless. The only thing countries care about is their own interests. If you start judging by morality, than almost every influential nation in mid XX century was immoral. Yes, MR pact war immoral - and so was Munich agreement and Polish aggression of 1919. So was Katyn, and so was Hiroshima and Dresden. Whole ing history of human civilization was immoral. When one country does something and than blames other one for doing same thing - it is just plainly hypocritical. USSR in MR pact was just pursuing its geopolitical interests, just like the rest of Europe.
    And yes, Poland and USSR were allies, as nations, who were fighting Axis.
    I agree what you said to the point that Poland and USSR were allies as I said before Poland and USSR werent allies at all for the reasons I mention except the Polish Communists that would form the goverment of Communist Poland a Puppet State of Soviet Union.
    Last edited by RomanSoldier9001; September 06, 2009 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    The Polish underground were well known anti-communists
    Surprise that, they did not want a Stalinist puppet state.... how odd.
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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    I find the use of words like "immoral" in politics quite pointless. The only thing countries care about is their own interests. If you start judging by morality, than almost every influential nation in mid XX century was immoral. Yes, MR pact war immoral - and so was Munich agreement and Polish aggression of 1919. So was Katyn, and so was Hiroshima and Dresden. Whole ing history of human civilization was immoral. When one country does something and than blames other one for doing same thing - it is just plainly hypocritical. USSR in MR pact was just pursuing its geopolitical interests, just like the rest of Europe.
    And yes, Poland and USSR were allies, as nations, who were fighting Axis.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; September 06, 2009 at 03:53 PM.

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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    I find the use of words like "immoral" in politics quite pointless. The only thing countries care about is their own interests. If you start judging by morality, than almost every influential nation in mid XX century was immoral.
    Vseslavich, if the "politics is immoral anyway" argument would count, that would mean two things:
    1, the process of Nürnberg was a lame joke
    2, that Putin doesn't need to befriend the poles with some apology and some instructions to think otherwise.

    But apparently people think there are lesser and greater evils that's why moral arguments are necessary.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    Vseslavich, if the "politics is immoral anyway" argument would count, that would mean two things:
    1, the process of Nürnberg was a lame joke
    From some point of view it was. If Axis won, they'd have Paris or Leningrad trials for Churchill, Stalin, etc. Of course, most of Nazis had it coming, but you can hardly call judgment of victor over the loser unbiased.

    2, that Putin doesn't need to befriend the poles with some apology and some instructions to think otherwise.
    Putin needs to do that because geopolitical conditions today are totally different. Russia needs to be more Europe-oriented, but without losing its sovereignty to Berlin or Brussels.

    But apparently people think there are lesser and greater evils that's why moral arguments are necessary.
    "Evils" are "lesser" and "greater" only from someone's perspective. Of course, Poles and their supposed allies would think that MR pact was somehow "greater" evil, while Munich was "lesser" evil, but for Soviets it was the other way around. They saw in Munich a direct threat to their security, and in MR pact athey saw a way to postpone the war with Hitler. MR pact was not just, but it was good for USSR, and that was Stalin's primal concern, just like Munich for UK.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Vladimir Putinīs Open Letter to the Polish People

    Quote Originally Posted by Volh Vseslavich View Post
    From some point of view it was. If Axis won, they'd have Paris or Leningrad trials for Churchill, Stalin, etc. Of course, most of Nazis had it coming, but you can hardly call judgment of victor over the loser unbiased.


    Putin needs to do that because geopolitical conditions today are totally different. Russia needs to be more Europe-oriented, but without losing its sovereignty to Berlin or Brussels.


    "Evils" are "lesser" and "greater" only from someone's perspective. Of course, Poles and their supposed allies would think that MR pact was somehow "greater" evil, while Munich was "lesser" evil, but for Soviets it was the other way around. They saw in Munich a direct threat to their security, and in MR pact athey saw a way to postpone the war with Hitler. MR pact was not just, but it was good for USSR, and that was Stalin's primal concern, just like Munich for UK.
    Well spoken. Putin wants to regain Russia's old influence over eastern Europe. That is all that there is in this letter.

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