Early English era tactics?

**titan357** · September 04, 2009, 08:37 AM

Hi all,

As my second post here, I wish to start off by saying that I love the canges this mod makes, the map is great, and the battles are much better.

I have played a couple hours as the english, and took over the rebel towns close to me, hard fight but no big deal ( im new to the mod forgive me ) but I could already see the problems starting for me.

The first thing I noticed, was that my milita spearmen are not as effective as they used to be against Horsemen, fair I guess, but england lack pikes, unless I get the mercs from ireland.
So, what is the most effecive way to deal with this I have tryed using the sheild wall, and cant tell a much change.
I have even had scotish heavy calv ride right through several ranks of my spearmen, and pretty much crush anything in there way.

I know heavy calv are effective, but riding through a unit of spearmen seems strange, and there really isnt much I can do about it, because I dont have a effecive pike unit that I can recruit.

Next on my list is that, the scots seem to have massive ammounts of the heavy calv.

So, what to do? and is there a general guide/tips for new people? something that covers towns/citys as well, and when you can change a castle toa city and not have to worry about it?

Thanks guys,
and great mod.

**PerXX** · September 04, 2009, 08:43 AM

Once you get access to your longbowmen, you can use them to set stakes, which are devastating against Cavalry.

**titan357** · September 04, 2009, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by PerXX

Once you get access to your longbowmen, you can use them to set stakes, which are devastating against Cavalry.

hmmm, so set stakes before a batte then move my archers behind my front line troops?
what if its a batte that I cant set stakes? such as a battle where the is no deployment?

thats a good idea though, cept those rare cases, but it would be kinda silly to expect the horsemen to ride onto my stakes would it not?

They like to flank me as it is.

But thanks for the idea, that will some thing I will have to keep in mind.

**meese** · September 04, 2009, 08:52 AM

and the scots don't have massive amounts of heavy cavalry :/ Their cavalry essentially consists of border horses, more border horses and a few feudal knights. Which, you also have

Oh, and general's bodyguards too...which you have.

I guess you'll need to get used to the fact that heavy cavalry are really quite strong on their charges and spear militia just aren't going to cut it particularly near the end. For the moment, they're good against border horses and for withstanding the charge of heavier knights but since you do have more cities/castles than scotland, you should be able to at least overwhelm them with numbers

I guess general tips: Use both heavy and light cavalry, particularly for flanking + charging. Spear militia won't do anything more than hold the line. For heavily armoured units, early, you won't have many things that kill them quickly so be prepared to lose lots of spear militia

Could always flank charge them with cavalry though. And as PerXX said, stakes are useful, but be careful of the enemy cavalry choosing to flank you to bypass that.

Economy-wise, I've never found inverness to be much of a castle since it was so far away from the front lines (though others may disagree) and I'd suggest changing it to a castle. Same with the Irish castles. Nottingham/Winchester/Caen you'll probably want to keep as castles, though I do sometimes change nottingham. Low taxation is good because it increases your income over the long term through larger populations, but in wartime I typically put up taxes to cope with larger armies. Then I stand them down and keep only enough to defend my borders, allowing for low taxation again and growth.

**meese** · September 04, 2009, 08:55 AM

darn, looks like the first half of my post went missing...deployment, I put stakes then foot knights which would normally be vulnerable to cavalry charges behind the stakes and move archers behind with spearmen on the sides to defend from the cavalry flanking

later on, you'll want to put billmen and other 2h AP units behind them to attack the cavalry after they've engaged in combat (because AP + effective vs cavalry makes them ideal in combat, but not charge-withstanding)

**titan357** · September 04, 2009, 09:01 AM

ok, thanks.

I am just going to restart all over again, and try it with a new take on combat, insted of my stock game mind set.

I also noticed, I tryed to get one of my family members killed, but had a very hard time of it, he just kept going and goin, even when he was left alone, and in the middle of 3 enemy units, he lasted a pretty good time before he died off.

**meese** · September 04, 2009, 09:05 AM

Haha, yeah, that's the strength of general's bodyguards for you

I -always- use them in the early stages because that's when they truly shine, being the best heavy cavalry around. Oh and I always keep family members I don't want...they make effective crusaders

I can exterminate all I want and execute all I want. It's great!

**Tyrenia** · September 04, 2009, 09:44 AM

Yeah, those Generals are waaaaaaay strong.

Still, I can't help but notice the fact that cavalry (minus the Bodyguard of course) die too easily in this mod. I used to be a fan of horses, but now all knights are good for is the charge

. The one thing I will say though is that I agree, spearmen appear to be less effective against them on the whole than in vanilla.

As for early English tactics... take all the nearby rebel settlments then turtle until you can produce longbowmen. After that, go beat up some Celts! I find that the longbow works wonders against tightly packed Scottish infantry formations. Get some Sergeant Spearmen and Dismount Knights to make up the rest of your army. Cavalry is a poor choice against nearly all your early foes: The Scots bristle with spears and other nasty horse killing things and the French will usually so severely outclass the early English player in cavalry quality, that there's really no point trying to match them, the large upkeep is not worth the few units you'll kill with them.

Good Luck

**meese** · September 04, 2009, 09:46 AM

The late era knights get really strong, even not in the charge. That said, it's not hard to kill a man on a horse if you have a halberd

**Navajo Joe** · September 04, 2009, 10:23 AM

Titus 357,
I think something you may want to consider is that you will need to upgrade your settlements as quickly as you can to a Blacksmith, then an Armourer. This will give your Spear Miltia better armour, stronger defense and a more difficult target for enemy Cavarly. Keep the taxes low in your cities, encourage growth and you will get them sooner.
In the early game, I believe you have Spear Miltia, Serjeants, Peasant Bowman and Hobilars/Mounted Sergeants. You will be waiting some time for Longbow and Crossbowmen, so I would acquire some Irish Kerns, found in Ireland and Scotland as mercenaries, very cheap, but those Javelins very useful against Heavy Cavarly.

**titan357** · September 04, 2009, 11:24 AM

Thank you all for your help, its nice to see a active and helpfull fourm.

I guess after playing regualr MTW2 for years ( I just got Kingdoms and SS ) I really need to change how I think.

Looking back at what I was doing, and the units I was using, I can see why I had to play the number game, and some times still lost.
I was pretty much giving pesants bows and spears and sheilds and sending them of to war with rebels ( who are the same ) and later the Scots.
Because the rebels are the same thing pretty much, I could use good tactics to beat them, but the scots simply had my units out classed and out equiped.
I think thats why I was loosing mostly, even with a full stack against a half stack.

I think when I restart, I will take the rebels out asap, and then build up a good base and better units to wage war with.
I am also thinking of changing some of the smaller non important castles to citys for the added tax money, keeping a few castles.

**Sir Walter** · September 04, 2009, 12:21 PM

In SS, militia don't beat cavalry. Simple as, really.

**Sargon_of_Akkad** · September 04, 2009, 12:42 PM

I find that braced, spear-walled levy spearmen can take a charge almost flawlessly.

**Sir Walter** · September 05, 2009, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sargon_of_Akkad

I find that braced, spear-walled levy spearmen can take a charge almost flawlessly.

Problem is it means they stand there for ages waiting. Same with schiltrom but they're so slow... and their cavalry can flank a shield wall. Generals on the flanks

**kannwar** · September 05, 2009, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by M.P.C.U.

In SS, militia don't beat cavalry. Simple as, really.

They can but they always take heavy losses. Playing as Scotland in the early era, Spear Militia made up the bulk of my army and i had a spectacular conquest over England.

**Sir Walter** · September 05, 2009, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by kannwar

They can but they always take heavy losses. Playing as Scotland in the early era, Spear Militia made up the bulk of my army and i had a spectacular conquest over England.

Wow! I always try to get some sergeant spearmen or similar...

**Royalfork** · September 05, 2009, 12:10 PM

When I play as the English my tactics all revolve around archers. In a full stack I usually have at least 5 units of archers (specifically longbow men) in it.

**Sir Walter** · September 05, 2009, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Royalfork

When I play as the English my tactics all revolve around archers. In a full stack I usually have at least 5 units of archers (specifically longbow men) in it.

Good English tactics there

Also, never underestimate adopting everyone you can (just don't let the faction heir adopt people who will become heir presumptive) just for the low-upkeep bodyguard which smashes almost all early-era units