Muslim Nations: Too Overpowered

[CamelX]

Hi all! I'm a big fan of Stainless Steel, playing it since 5.0, but I'm having one big problem concerning Arabic states, not being able to overcome them. They have immensely powerful cavalry with super tough platinum-like armor, infantry that overcomes all european unit types, heavy cavalry and plate armored (crusader) infantry alike, and I can't stop the Fatimids conquer the number of provinces required for winning conditions, especially if I'm playing a northern nation that's unable to intervene properly. All this is not enough for me to stop loving Stainless Steel, since I prefer less powerful nations and all I want with them is to gain glory, not to conquer the world, but I'm curious about your opinion and/or tactics about this issue. For instance, yesterday I sent an army of 800 good Hungarian men to aid my German allies with 1000 men against an elite Turk opponent of 900. Needless to say we lost, to such an extent we were only able to kill 330 of their "tanks". After that they could still fend off the German troops like a huge brick wall so what's your poison against this mega horde?

[emzu]

When I seriously prepare for fighting with the Muslims I try to get as many AP units as possible.
Most of the time I focus on javelins (javelin cavalry) and axes. Good-armoured foot archers are also a big help against the annoying horse archers.

The most problematic issue with Muslims is their heavy cavalry and BGs which surpass any of their early European equivalents. I try to always send 1-2 units of HA just to take down/wound their commander unit. It's much easier to take it down later.

[meese]

Hum...I know from playing them, that the Turks get really quite strong units like the Janissaries and even Ottoman Infantry. However, I really don't think they have "infantry that overcomes all european unit types" and their only really strong unit (on its own) is probably the Qapakulu which, with pikes + halberds you can take down. But their armies as a whole, with cavalry archers and the like, do make up a very effective and well rounded force.

I'm not quite sure what units you're referring to though. If I was using the Western Roster (never played Hungary), I'd be focusing strongly on generally better cavarly (except int he case of Qapakulu) and more well armoured units. That'll render the archers somewhat less effective not to mention all the spearmen which the Muslims field. Luckily, the Turks won't have Ghulams so you'll be free from that. But yeah, exactly what are you having trouble with? Everytime I played as the Turks and saw bucketloads of dismounted and mounted feudal/chivalric knights against my Saracen Militia I just wanted to give up

[meese]

Sorry for the double post, but yeah as Keizo said, make sure you take AP units (I typically prefer halberd militia because they're so cheap and get bonuses vs cavalry as well) because the bodyguards are going to be hell without them

[CamelX]

Well, Hungary is indeed in lack of well armored knights, they rely entirely on horse archers, which are weaker in-game than Turk cavalry archers. I'm playing a late SS 6.2 campaign, and I guess it's quite historical that my capital was seized by the Turks without much problem, we only relied on heavy fortifications and the Christian faith on the castle walls way to go for halberdiers then, I guess, thanks for the advice. I still wonder how to counter the massive advancement of Fatimids though (especially if you're seated up north)

[emzu]

There's an easy way to stop Egipt from becoming too powerful.
Make sure there is an early crusade called on Cairo or somewhere near. Early in game it should be quite easy to seize it and conquering rest of Alexandria should not be a problem (you should be able to sue for peace even immediately after conquering their city and with Ceasfire+Trade Rights combo you can even get a 500g/15+ turns tribute easily...). This stops the Fatimids from becoming too powerful and gives the Seljuks a chance to become a superpower too.

[Navajo Joe]

I recently finished a 6.2 campaign with OOTKT with emerging KOJ, the Muslim factions succeeded in killing each other. Initially the Egyptians went to war with the Seljuks over Baghdad. Then Kwarmezians went to war with Egyptians over, yes you guessed it Baghdad. A crusade was called on Cairo, the Hungarians captured it, then expanded eventually to hold 5 settlements in the area. Meanwhile Egyptians giving KOJ hard time, got them down to just Jerusalem, until the Templars, come to their aid and finish of the Egyptians. So by turn 100 the Egyptians and Seljuks are destroyed. The Kwarmezians are the dominant eastern faction at this point, then in 1220 the Mongols arrive and the Kwarmezians are effectively destroyed in 20 turns, all but one settlement which Dear Old Genghis, leaves. After Mongols move on this remaining town, begins to flourish and the Kwarmezians have a 2nd wind and take two towns back.

The dominant Factions in my game were the Moors, they destroyed Portugal, Leon, Aragon, France and Genoa. HRE was fairly large holding central europe and the Kievan Rus in the North East

[meese]

Hmm...it almost sounds like my campaign The Moors would be dominant and destroyed Portugal, Leon and Aragon before I intervened as Scotland and re-christianised the area along with Genoa. Sadly, this meant I allied with Genoa who are now the other dominant western faction. West Europe is pretty much split between Scotland/Genoa. Venice/Denmark are barely holding out against the Timurids/Fatamid and I dread the day they crumble. Novogorod meanwhile, seems to be doing nothing even though it's the fourth most powerful nation I think.

[MathiasOfAthens]

I play as the Romans. The Fatimids and the Turks always attack me together. Sometimes they even call a jihad on my capital. I know I cant fight them on the battlefield 100% of the time so what I do is build a couple armies armed with artillery pieces and they will go around and seige cities. They will be used to go on the offensive but they will avoid battles. While I defend my cities with archers and spearmen. Sometimes I get lucky and the enemy is so far from the city when they try to storm it that I can sally with my cavalry and destroy their ram and be able to retreat back into my city for protection.

One game I was at war with both the Fatimids and Turks. I loaded a couple armies into ships and sailed to alexandria where I immediately stormed the city and sacked it and moved onto the next one. Before long I was in control of both egypt and gaza and moving north. The Fatimids were knocked out within a couple turns after that. They couldnt sustain their armies moving around in Anatolia and I just left them alone since they werent doing anything.

[CamelX]

I play as the Romans. The Fatimids and the Turks always attack me together. Sometimes they even call a jihad on my capital. I know I cant fight them on the battlefield 100% of the time so what I do is build a couple armies armed with artillery pieces and they will go around and seige cities. They will be used to go on the offensive but they will avoid battles. While I defend my cities with archers and spearmen. Sometimes I get lucky and the enemy is so far from the city when they try to storm it that I can sally with my cavalry and destroy their ram and be able to retreat back into my city for protection.

One game I was at war with both the Fatimids and Turks. I loaded a couple armies into ships and sailed to alexandria where I immediately stormed the city and sacked it and moved onto the next one. Before long I was in control of both egypt and gaza and moving north. The Fatimids were knocked out within a couple turns after that. They couldnt sustain their armies moving around in Anatolia and I just left them alone since they werent doing anything.

Scorched earth tactic FTW That's a good idea I think, not the most noble one, but will be used as soon as I get my capital back and if I can keep the Dalmatian coast fort that's sure to give them some headache and for me, some pillage and some nice harem girls perhaps

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Fabius would be proud!

I personally prefer to do the opposite, and go around Hannibal-ing my enemies!

[ginger_hammer]

I've played as most factions and it seems to go both ways. Playing factions well away from spain I've seen the moors take over the whole of spain and also castille/portugal destroy the moors.
Turkey also seems to go both way, more often than not it gets hammered. Kwar starts strong then gets battered by the mongols.
Fatimad Egypt is the only one who most of the time is a powerhouse, just send regular crusades to keep them quiet if playing as a christian faction.
Oh and yeah their BG are pretty hardcore!

[meese]

Am I the only one that ever finds the Timurids incredibly strong? :o

[Royalfork]

Am I the only one that ever finds the Timurids incredibly strong? :o

I'm kind of new to this mod, my question is dose this mod even have the Timurids in it?

[Warmaster Tibs]

I'm kind of new to this mod, my question is dose this mod even have the Timurids in it?

6.1 does not, nor does it have the Americas.

[Caesar Clivus]

I'm kind of new to this mod, my question is dose this mod even have the Timurids in it?

They were taken out but the latest RR/RC submod has put them back in. Check the submods forum for details.

[Sir Walter]

I simply never get far enough to see the Mongols, let alone the Timurids But in my experience the way to kill Muslim factions is to take their castles when they're undefended and the cities just collapse because they've got to recruit their good soldiers miles away, unlike Christians who get some mediocre units from cities...

[InsaneHanz]

In my campaign as the Knights Templar I destroyed all of the Muslim factions with ease. None of them had good infantry, the only thing they had on me was their cavalry and spearmen (only slightly). This might have been because non of them were strong in the first place though.

[XICenturionIX]

I do not believe they're overpowered, however, if left unchecked, they will certainly make you believe that.

[Mithrantir]

I usually play as Byzantium. In the last campaign (which i am still playing), the Turks as well as the Fatimids have been annihilated by my troops. That wouldn't be possible though if i didn't use a sufficient number of Byzantine cavalry, which is on par with the turkish horse archers (except the Siphahis or something like that). I usually deployed them in an entirelly different place than the rest of my army, and then navigate them to the backs of my enemy. Their efficiency in this situation (shooting soldiers on the back) was fantastic, and when a cavalry unit came close i usually attacked them too.

I used always one or 2 teams of at least 2 units per team (more often than not 2 teams of 3 horse archer units). That gave me an advantage also in case an enemy cavalry unit managed somehow to get on top of my teams.