Awsome mod...but

[SonOfOdin]

I love this mod(or at least...it's previews)
I downloaded the preview with the factions, scriptings, militarised orders etc

Now for the sake of Historical Accuracy, I just want to point out one minor detail :

The Knights of Saint John(or the Knights Hospitallers - Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, Order of St. John, Knights of Malta, and Chevaliers of Malta - among other names, but at the timeperiod of the mod they were still the Knights Hospitallers or the Knights of St.John) should only be recruited by limited factions

The order was divided in tongues(from their website) :

1. Provence (part of modern France)

2. France

3. Auvergne (another part of modern France)

4. Italy

5. Aragon (part of modern Spain)

6. Allemagne (modern Germany)

7. England

8. Castille
(There were Portugese too)
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The English tongue was dispersed when Henry created the Church of England
When Castille and Aragon united(Kingdom of Spain), there were still both tongues I believe
A new Bavarian tongue was established in the late 18th century(way out of the timeframe)

Symbol in the early days :

Early Hospitaller with a Templar

Another Emblem, the 8 Pointed Cross, which is now known as the Maltese Cross(it represents the 8 virtues of the order

"The emblem of the Order is a white eight-pointed cross embellished in the four principal angles alternately with a lion passant guardant and a unicorn passant. The four arms of the cross signify the cardinal virtues: Prudence, Temperance, Justice and Fortitude. The eight points signify the beatitudes: Humility, Compassion, Courtesy, Devotion, Mercy, Purity, Peace and Endurance." :






In NO MEANS did I try to go against your researchers here, but since I live on the Island where the order spent 200 years, I've got plenty of knowlage on them...I've been studying on them since primary school so...

[Monarchist]

Thank you for creating this thread, Odin! I wish that I were part of the historical team for this, because I see the amount of passion and effort which has been put into the mod so far. My own studies of the Order of St. John (and of your island!) have taken me deep into the realms of Medieval and Renaissance history. It is really nice to see a fellow MII player who is so fascinated by the Knights of Jerusalem/Rhodes/Malta, and even though I am not a member of DotS development, I wouldn't say that this thread is presumptuous. Lovers of history must point out as much as they can to developers, in order that they can make the most accurate historical mod possible, in my opinion!

There are two problems I often have with big mods which feature the Hospitallers. Firstly, the 8-pointed Maltese Cross did not really develop in Heraldry until the Knights themselves made it popular after 1530. There were early versions of it that have been found on Rhodes, but these were developed by Italian merchants. Amalfi, the Italian town which founded the first true hospital in Jerusalem in 1050, had something similar to the Maltese Cross in the 12th century; unfortunately, for historians, this wasn't close enough to the later cross (used by the Knights) to truly call it the Maltese Cross.

My second concern has to do with the problem of costume! I often see in mods, such Stainless Steel and Deus Lo Vult (not to attack those excellent mods), Hospitallers wearing black surcoats or wearing plate armor of a black hue for the later campaigns. The problem here is that the Popes specifically ordered the Hospitallers to change all surcoats and colors in 1275 from Sable (black) to Gules (red). A confusing historical problem that I often see in mods is the use of "Sable a Maltese Cross Argent" for the banners, flag, and surcoats of the Hospitallers. Sable is the heraldic word for black, Argent for white/silver, and "a" denotes that the second color surmounts the first. For example, "Sable a Maltese Cross Argent" literally means "Black with a White Maltese Cross on top".

The Maltese Cross was introduced to the Knights in 1530 (that's when they moved to Malta, as you must know, dear friend), and they changed from black to red battle colors in 1275. Thus, it is very odd to see Hospitallers wearing a Maltese Cross on black armor from around 1300! Both of these things are completely anachronistic. I realize that this mod is much bigger than some petty Knights of St. John, but I have a great love for historical accuracy. The developers of this mod seem to have that as well, so I offer this in humility.

To the developers: I love your mod so far, so please keep up the excellent work!

[Resurrection]

Excellent info. Did you guys considered joining the ranks of our researchers? That way you could directly influence the areas of interest of yours :-) And also would help speeding up the creation of the mod.

[Hax]

Thank you very much, this is great information. I believe I can speak for the whole team here, we try to recreate history as accurately as possible, so don't be afraid your (well-argumented(!)) information will be cast aside.

[OdinX]

Hmmm, if you can PM alkidas maybe he'll take you in as a researcher; give it a try.

[Achilla]

Hmmm, if you can PM alkidas maybe he'll take you in as a researcher; give it a try.

I second that

[Monarchist]

Hmmm, if you can PM alkidas maybe he'll take you in as a researcher; give it a try.

I think I will do that, my friend! Thank you for the compliment and encouragement. I'd love to help this amazing-looking mod in any way possible.

[SonOfOdin]

Thanks to Thomas for clearing some things, and yes, the Maltese cross as it is shown was appointed later to the Knights, but as you said...the Italian merchant who owned a hospital in Jerusalem had something that resembles it

As for the historical team, I'd leave that to Thomas Hospitaller
He seems to know his stuff, and I'm already working on a Knight's mod on ETW

Good luck with the mod btw, I'll surely download it when it's released

Ohh and on what Thomas said on flags and emblems:

Before change to red :

(I'm sure there were some earlier versions of the maltese cross, as there were crosses in rhodes)

(This is a meeting for prayer in Rhodes)


See the cross? It kind of a usual catholic cross but with 8 points, but not as slanting as the Maltese cross




After change of colour to red :
(Naval Jack and Order's flag)


Grandmaster's flag & coat of arms :




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I accidentaly found this on google, and it looks similiar to DOTS imo


And these are late-period plate armours from the Grand Armoury of Malta

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