Senator
Erm, Erik i hate to say it but you really need to read a bit more...
Jews are a race, fact. (Proven by genetic studies)
what you call Palestinian people are Arabs, who moved in during the Muslim rule over the region.
(again its proven by genetics)
Jews claim for Israel based not only on religion but on racial connection as well
ah and there were plenty of jews who lived there through the Roman,Byzantine,Muslim,etc rule....
Perhaps you also say that Gypsies are not a race as well?
Dux Limitis
Genetics have actually shown no difference between Palestinians, Arabs OR original jewish inhabitanats of Israel. (they are all Semites afterall).Originally Posted by Mr.Flint
Like I said: there is no Palestinian race, but there are Palestinian people.
Palestinians can have all kinds of religion, including jewish (and many are in fact jewish).
Jews are people who follow a certain religion.
They might, or might not, have SOME ancesters from Israel but they are mixed in with people from their region.
If jews were a race, would they not all look the same?
And how do you explain caucasian and black jews?
And if jews were from one race, why do they have hebrew names for all the different ethnic jews?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Ethnic_divisionsEthnic divisions
Main article: Jewish ethnic divisions
The most commonly used terms to describe ethnic divisions among Jews presently are: Ashkenazi (meaning "German" in Hebrew, denoting the Central European base of Jewry); and Sephardi (meaning "Spanish" or "Iberia" in Hebrew, denoting their Spanish, Portuguese and North African location). They refer to both religious and ethnic divisions.
Other Jewish ethnic groups include Mizrahi Jews (a term overlapping Sephardi, but emphasizing North African and Middle Eastern rather than Spanish history, and including the Maghrebim); Teimanim (Yemenite and Omani Jews); and such smaller groups as the Gruzim and Juhurim from the Caucasus, the Bene Israel, Bnei Menashe, Cochin and Telugu Jews of India, the Romaniotes of Greece, the Italkim (Bené Roma) of Italy, various African Jews (most notably the Beta Israel or Ethiopian Jews), the Bukharan Jews of Central Asia, and the Persian Jews of Iran.
Some Jewish communities have lost religious culture or have assimilated, such as the Kaifeng Jews of China.
Last edited by Erik; July 24, 2005 at 05:11 PM.
Erik,
I was not referring directly to you. As long as people realize that Palestinian is the same as American I am fine. Palestinians are jews and arabs. People keep calling the arabs palestinians in some attempt to give them legitamacy over the jewish people.
As for race, I dont know what the technicallities are to qualify a group of people as a race. Does anyone? How long must a group live in relative isolation to become a seperate race?
Under the Patronage of Marshal Qin
Dux Limitis
That's the point: Jews didn't live in isolation, they mixed into the surrounding population just like anybody else.
Being Dutch I'm prety sure I'm also part "Jewish": statistically some of my ancestors must have come from Israel.
I'm probably more "Jewish" than the average "jew" in Israel today.
Mind you: the idea that jews are a special race was made up by the nazi's but stands no ground in modern day science.
Senator
I doubt that you are more jewish than most jews in Israel, you might find some though.... tell me, is your mother jewish? or her mother? or her mother's mother?
European as well a middle-eastern Jews had far less mixing with the surrounding population due to the fact of them living in ghettoes
Like I said, I am not sure what makes one group a race vs another. I do know that there are is no such race as palestinians, and therefor no group as more of a claim than any other group to the area known as palestine.
Question, does anyone know what is the scientific qualifications to classify a group of people as a race? How much genetic variation must take place?
Under the Patronage of Marshal Qin
Dux Limitis
oops, please delete
Last edited by Erik; July 24, 2005 at 05:56 PM.
Dux Limitis
The Palestinians don't make their claim because of race or genetics but becasue they were the ONLY people living in the area for thousands of years. (apart from some lost European crusaders I guess).
In my book natives still have a right to claim the lands where they lived for centuries, even if they were forced to flee during a recent war.
Like I said I'm Dutch.I doubt that you are more jewish than most jews in Israel, you might find some though.... tell me, is your mother jewish? or her mother? or her mother's mother?
European as well a middle-eastern Jews had far less mixing with the surrounding population due to the fact of them living in ghettoes
Jews never lived in ghetto's in the Netherlands.
The Netherlnds also had a very high percentage of Jews amongs their population, much higher than less tollerant countries.
AFAIK I don't have any jews in my family but I know many (non-jewish) people who do.
There just MUST have been people from jewish descent amongs my ancestors, it's statistiacally almost impossible not to have "jewish genes" in the Netherlands.
That's what I said: the Palestinian jews have the same rights as all other Palestinians.Yet Jews were still living there as well.....
therefore they are natives as well,
and had a full right to reclaim the land on wich they lived centuries before, even if they were forced into exile through wars.
But most jews in Israel today are (illegal) immigrants or children from (illegal) immigrants.
Senator
Look for my post above.
no argument here
those jews who remained in Israel for centuries, never call or associate themselves as Palestinians.
Illegal immigrants? not that many of em where there, and i can hardly call people who escaped death from eroupe "illegal immigrants"
or you implying that East-Eropean jews that fled the pogroms, are illegals as well?
I am sure that in my heritage I have ancestors that lived in the very spot that you did. Of course I have no proof because writing didnt exist for my culture. But that is irrelavent, all that matters is I make the claim right?
So when I can I move in?
Under the Patronage of Marshal Qin
Dux Limitis
You can't.
I said people who lived somewhere centuries (=the natives = the Palestinians in Israel) get a right to keep their homes, not people who have had some ancestors that lived there thousands of years ago.
In short: Palestinians have the right to return to Israel, jews have no special rights.
See Erik, you missed the point again.
palestinians=arabs and jews. Some of the jewish families have lived there for centuries. Dont forget the arabs lost a war to the jews. Why should the jews have to return the land they won in a war they didnt start?
Second question, you are to vague in your qualifications, how long must you live in a spot and how long can you be gone before you can reclaim your land?
Under the Patronage of Marshal Qin
Senator
Yet Jews were still living there as well.....
therefore they are natives as well,
and had a full right to reclaim the land on wich they lived centuries before, even if they were forced into exile through wars.
Mr Common Sense
1. And the Palestinian Authority has every right to do the same. Also, there is a fundamental human right: no one is to discriminated against on the basis of race or creed et ceterea (2nd Article of the UN Convention). One of the things mentioned is national origin. An Arab and an Israeli living in the same area have different rights because of a presumption about the Arab (assuming it is in an Israel-controlled area).
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Mr Common Sense
However an Arab in Israel-controlled West Bank or Gaza is probably not an Israeli Arab, while a Jew in those areas almost certainly is. Like I said, assuming it is Israeli-controlled; I suppose I should have said, "and not Israel itself" to make it clear.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
Former Chief Technician
Well, I don't think that violates any rules. I mean, then surely the U.S. is in violation for not letting unauthorized non-Americans into our embassies in other countries? Or, for that matter, for not letting unauthorized non-Americans into our country altogether? Some possessions of a nation are understood to be reserved for that nation's citizens, generally including all of the country proper and certain areas outside of it (such as embassies), although certain authorized non-nationals may also be permitted to enter. Palestinians aren't usually allowed into the settlements (to use a word I don't much like for the sake of brevity) to start with, unless of course they somehow enter Israel through normal tourist channels.
-Simetrical
Mr Common Sense
Actually no that is crossing sovereign territories. They have free movement when they enter the nation and they have free movement in their own nation; it is an interesting question which applies to the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, of course. Restriction of movement exists within the general West bank and Gaza Strip, and a curfew at least existed (I'm not sureif they stopped with that now). Of course we could say that the West bank and Gaza Strip are part of Israel but that makes the Arabs living there Israeli residents. Hmmm.
primus pater cunobelin erat; sum in patronicium imb39, domi wilpuri; Saint-Germain, MasterAdnin, Pnutmaster, Scorch, Blau&Gruen,
Ferrets54, Honeohvovohaestse, et Pallida Mors in patronicum meum sunt
親方
"why hate Israel?"
Why bother I ask?
The state of Israel has the military and diplomatid support of the US, weaponry and equipment provided by the US and other NATO countries which rivals with the world's best armies, it has and airforce, infantry and tanks, not to mention special forces.
Yet their "enemies", the "terrorists" the "evil palestinians" fight with rocks, sticks, the occasional stolen RPG from the soviet era and the self-sacrificing suicide bomber..... guess who will "win"?...
And jews always complain about racism and xenophobia....well, just look at Sharon and his party... what do you call them?
浪人 - 二天一
They could better nuke the ******* countery until nothing stands there.
actually Israel made Jerusalem Israel's capital after the Six Day War.
i also wouldnt mind if Jerusalem would be in international city like it was supposed to be back in 1948.. but what justification do the Palestinians have for demanding Jerusalem?
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