Ireland's Guilt in WWII

[Lord Claremorris]

Alright, on numerous other threads people have pointed out that the Irish Free State (Saorstát Éireann) should have declared war upon the Axis in accordance with the actions of its fellow Dominions in support of the United Kingdom. As far as I know, there was no legally binding Treaty that the Irish Free State was a participant in that declared it was required to do so. I've found merely this quote in the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921, "be faithful to His Majesty King George V., his heirs and successors by law, in virtue of the common citizenship". Which can, of course, be interpreted in several different ways. I'm not familiar with the Statue of Westminster, which I believe has to do with the Governments of the Dominions, their obligations to the United Kingdom, and the right of Parliament to intervene in certain of their affairs. I clearly remember reading that the UK had control over foreign affairs of the Dominions, though I can't find where I read that and am not at all sure enough to claim that.

However, though I say this, I fully believe that the Irish Free State, being a Dominion of the British Empire, and being therefore guaranteed in its territorial integrity, not to mention all of the assistance in machinery and other materials that Britain rendered her after Independence, was morally obligated to side with the United Kingdom. Also, as Winston Churchill makes clear, the loss of the Treaty Ports, and the refusal of Ireland to allow the Royal Navy free use of these ports threatened the security of the United Kingdom itself, and its precious sea-lanes required for its subsistence. This in turn would indirectly threaten Ireland's own security as it was virtually completely dependent on the Royal Navy to preserve its independence and ironically, its neutrality, which Britain, and especially Churchill objected to.

I would like to know what other Irish people think, and also what the British think, though, of course, anyone with any knowledge or educated opinion is welcome to comment as they see fit.

[Azog 150]

Good question. I have always wandered this myself. I always figured it was to do with Ireland still being bitter about British rule and not wanting to appear to its citizens that it was still subjecting itself to Britain.

[Ahlerich]

Good question. I have always wandered this myself. I always figured it was to do with Ireland still being bitter about British rule and not wanting to appear to its citizens that it was still subjecting itself to Britain.

not beeing british or irish i would think as well that the irish were probably sick of fighting english wars. this time they had the option they didnt have in the past and they took it.

[Azog 150]

not beeing british or irish i would think as well that the irish were probably sick of fighting english wars. this time they had the option they didnt have in the past and they took it.

Instead, Britain fought Ireland's war and kept them safe. After all, if the Germans had successfully invaded Britain or knocked them out of the war, Ireland would undoubtedly have been next in Germany's conquest of Europe.

[Ardruire Iacób]

Instead, Britain fought Ireland's war and kept them safe. After all, if the Germans had successfully invaded Britain or knocked them out of the war, Ireland would undoubtedly have been next in Germany's conquest of Europe.

The prevailing popular opinion was that Irish men ahd been fighting imperial wars for centuries, and now they were free to avoid imperial conflicts. Many people didn't care that Germany would invade given the chance, they were more than ready to repeat the guerilla campaign that had won independence seventeen years earlier. It didn't really occur to many that the Germans were more willing to attack civilians than the British had been. Irish war censorship was so extreme that many Irish people believed the Holocaust to be a lie even after the war ended, because Irish censorship had eradicated all mention of it. As far as people were concerned, it was a war between imperial powers, and Éire had no part meddling in it.

[EireEmerald]

The prevailing popular opinion was that Irish men ahd been fighting imperial wars for centuries, and now they were free to avoid imperial conflicts. Many people didn't care that Germany would invade given the chance, they were more than ready to repeat the guerilla campaign that had won independence twenty-seven years earlier. It didn't really occur to many that the Germans were more willing to attack civilians than the British had been. Irish war censorship was so extreme that many Irish people believed the Holocaust to be a lie even after the war ended, because Irish censorship had eradicated all mention of it. As far as people were concerned, it was a war between imperial powers, and Éire had no part meddling in it.

+ rep

[Ahlerich]

Instead, Britain fought Ireland's war and kept them safe. After all, if the Germans had successfully invaded Britain or knocked them out of the war, Ireland would undoubtedly have been next in Germany's conquest of Europe.

now thats extremely "what if" but i think hitler would have had no interest in fighting ireland. why would he?he didnt even have a interest in fighting england. he simply fought them because they declared war and he had to.

[Arch-hereticK]

Hitler ignored switzerland due to its neutrality, it can't be argued that he was afraid of them. There is very little reason to assume that he would invade Ireland.

[Mangalore]

You have to consider how Ireland managed to become a dominion: Through bloody insurrection. Not the best base to make any legal demands on sacificing your lives for king and country, esspecially as the wounds were still very young. I'm not sure but the 1937 constitution seem already a way towards total independance so for Ireland of the time the dominion status was just a work in progress.

[pannonian]

You have to consider how Ireland managed to become a dominion: Through bloody insurrection. Not the best base to make any legal demands on sacificing your lives for king and country, esspecially as the wounds were still very young. I'm not sure but the 1937 constitution seem already a way towards total independance so for Ireland of the time the dominion status was just a work in progress.

Even Canada was only obliged to help as much as her people (via her government) wanted to, so one couldn't expect stronger guarantees of Ireland.

[conon394]

My 2 cents as a yank is its a tough call.

On the one hand its not like the USSR or the USA joined the war without being attacked, standing aside was the easy option, and frankly most took it.

On the status of Ireland in the Commonwealth/Empire, that seems tricky to me. On the one hand the other Dominions joined the fight so it looks bad for Ireland, but than again no other Dominion had the kind of recent bad blood with the crown Ireland did. In any case I suppose if I understand rightly Ireland would have argued the constitution of 1937 ended or at least substantially changed the nature of the Free State and duty to the crown, since the UK acquiesced they were free to declare neutrality.

Still looks like the easy way out to me - I realize the US sat on the sideline, but Ireland could have at least been a passive ally (its not like Ireland had the excuse of Sweden, Finland or Switzerland with respect to the potential of German force) - only a complete idiot could think a Nazi victory would be anything but an utter disaster far any small state in Europe.

[Arch-hereticK]

Well the day that George the V died, the Irish Government decided to update the constitution. Because there was no King in existence then the constitution was corrected, the oath was removed and everyone loved happily ever after, the end..................


The war started 3 years later.

This wasn't the first anglo Irish treaty where Irish independence was "ensured", so it's not surprising that the military occupation of vital ports was hotly objected to.

Also the Irish people never accepted the king as the head of state, we elected a president instead.

Also Balfours declaration 1927 ensured decision making independent of British involvement.

Part of the treaty was that Ireland had to keep its military power criminally low, which was seen by many as way of easily removing independence at Britain's leisure.

That's all I can think of right now, I'm sure I forgot some massively important issues.

[Azog 150]

But what were the Irish thinking when France was overrun and Britain was kicked out of Europe? By then, the threat of invasion to Britain was quite high, and if Britain fell, Ireland would surely be in a tricky spot. Would the Irish have continued to stand by if Operation Sea Lion went ahead and see it as Britain getting their comeuppance? Or would they have realized that their sovereignty might also be on the line?

[Arch-hereticK]

Well fighting was hardly an option. There were 100 million fighting men in the war, the population of the entire island was under 3 million at the time. The Army was not allowed to expand beyond 3000 trained men, most of whom were ex IRA and would never fight for Britain, there were many who volunteered to fight for the Germans.

We can't forget there were at least 20,000 irish volunteer casualities on the british side very few were permitted by their families to be buried here because they were considered traitors. Which is a lot considering we were sorta neutral.
Imagine how much cajonies it would have taken to fight for your most hated enemies against a country that had done nothing but support your independence(Germany was the first country to recognise Ireland's independence).

[emperorpenguin]

On the neutrality thing. There was no obligation for Ireland to declare war, South Africa almost didn't too.
Treaty Ports: I've personally never understood why Britain returned those so soon before the war. Did you know that Churchill promised DeValera the North, if the Treaty Ports were returned and Ireland joined the Allies?

Irish safety: Germany devised Fall Grun as a way of outflanking Britain by invading Ireland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gr%C3%BCn_(Ireland))

Ireland annoyed the Allies by its refusal to enter the war, as a consequence it received little Marshall Aid and was marginalised.
Another item of note. DeValera signed the book of condolences at the German embassy in May 45 following Hitler's death. An act of crass stupidity and insensitivity.

[UnitedIreland]

Well, honestly, I think Ireland was right not to enter the war. Politically, Ireland was playing the independence card, they were showing the world that they were independent from the UK. Also, in another attempt to show its independence, Ireland sent letters of condolences to Nazi Germany's representive in Dublin over the death of Hitler.

Also, with the history between Ireland and Britian, it is quite easy to imagine why they weren't jumping to help Britain. Remember, Hitler actually stated that if he took over the British Isles, he would have establised a United Ireland. Hitler also made Pro-Irish/Anti-British films to create anti-British sentiment within the German people.

If Ireland has anything to feel guilty about its this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyrOw5x5Hn0

[Phier]

But what were the Irish thinking when France was overrun and Britain was kicked out of Europe? By then, the threat of invasion to Britain was quite high, and if Britain fell, Ireland would surely be in a tricky spot. Would the Irish have continued to stand by if Operation Sea Lion went ahead and see it as Britain getting their comeuppance? Or would they have realized that their sovereignty might also be on the line?

Why would they care?

Ireland was practically a 3rd world country at the time, pleasant but very little of value industrially. Honestly if Britain fell, I could easily see them signing a non-aggression pact of some kind with the Axis and going on their merry way.

[Poach]

But what were the Irish thinking when France was overrun and Britain was kicked out of Europe? By then, the threat of invasion to Britain was quite high, and if Britain fell, Ireland would surely be in a tricky spot. Would the Irish have continued to stand by if Operation Sea Lion went ahead and see it as Britain getting their comeuppance? Or would they have realized that their sovereignty might also be on the line?

Sealion would have failed. Spectacularly.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Hardly a leigtimate reson for supporting what could well be described as the most destructive regime in human history.

I really don't see how anyone could expect Ireland to fight alongside Britain when countless Irish people had parents, siblings, best friends and relatives randomly murdered during the war of independence lass then two decades previously. And when people they felt a strong affinity with where second class citizens in an Apartheid state just across the border.

[emperorpenguin]

I ninja'd you UnitedIreland! lol

You can bet that United Ireland would have been a Blueshirt regime, certainly not democratic. I've seen that documentary, very good programme. There is a statue to Sean Russell in fairview Park which regularly gets painted with swastikas by those who see him as a Nazi sympathiser.

There were also a large number of Irishmen who did jump to help Britain. Among them my grandfather.