The real threat to secular western thought

[Phier]

For me, right now, Christianity is in a comfortable position. Its no longer in the forefront of political decisions, it isn’t the first thing people think about on moral and ethical issues, and its generally put in its place when it tries to interfere with science.

But I’m beginning to wonder….

Will the rise of a more fundamentalist (not necessarily radical) Islam spur on a rebirth of more militant Christianity as a result?

My reasoning is how people react when they are a minority verses when they are the majority. The majority can afford to be magnanimous with other beliefs, it can be tolerant without feeling threatened. When its majority status gets threatened though, there seems to be an almost unconscious drive to reclaim it. I note it most with the number of children groups have when ‘minorities’ vrs majorities, but I’m thinking that religious thought may follow as well.

The problem with secular society is that its disorganized, and rarely unified in purpose. In the US almost no one agrees 100% with their political party, to many issues to do so on. About the only time I’ve seen the US unified in purpose in my life was right after 9/11, and it scared the out of the world to see it for good reason.

Will, like having more children, there be an unconscious drive to react to what is perceived as a growing threat with a counter threat, and that’s a return to more ‘classic’ religious thought? Will the desire for a unified front against Islam in the west overcome our happy secular natures?

I honestly don’t know on this one. Being non-religious myself it seems to be a ridiculous option, yet I am in the minority in my beliefs. I’d also like to think its impossible but what is scary is that people are more superstitious, believe in things like ghosts and ESP, now MORE than they did in the 1960’s (I don’t have a link, I read it a few years ago in a science journal). I think we are completely capable of reverting, and perhaps that is what worries me most about this renewed spread of Islam.

[Ummon]

There is only one possible foreseeable end in being christian these days: martyrdom. Ours doesn't imply blowing stuff up, luckily. Not that I appreciate, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man

[Yaga Shu Ra]

There is only one possible foreseeable end in being christian these days: martyrdom. Ours doesn't imply blowing stuff up, luckily.

Seems like some of these people forgot the memo...

N.B. I'm not implying Christianity is an inherently violent religion, but pointing out that violence commited under its guise is not a de facto impossibility.

[Tankbuster]

There's certainly a number of Christians who feel that they need to start the 'fanaticism-race' with the Muslims, and try to indoctrinate their children better and faster than 'the Muslim'. I'd like to think that it won't go that way. Ultimately you're never going to 'outfanaticize' a fanatic, and I doubt many people would want to.

I've yet to be concined that fundamentalist Islam is indeed on the rise. That's certainly the impression we get through the media (every muslim atrocity of course gets magnified) but I'm not all that sure. We don't seem to see this radicalisation in India (150 millions muslims), nor in Indonesia (270 muslims), or in Bahrain, or in many other modern countries. It only seems to be in developing countries, who are making the shift towards a more equal and modern society.
I think what's going is that this evolution (especially the way muslim women are getting more and more literate and more and more independent) that's triggering a kind of lash-back to a more male-authoritarian society. Well, we've seen that before. When the young line up against the old it usually comes to a revolution, and with the current demographic data (in many muslim countries more than 50% of the population is under 25) I'd say that it won't take much longer.

I'm quite optimistic about all this, really. Young people in the muslim world are seizing their changes everywhere you look, most obviously in the most authoritarian society of all: Iran. When they win, and they will, we can offer them a change to be part of the civilised and globalised world. And when that happens, young people usually don't turn that offer down.

[Monarchist]

Will the rise of a more fundamentalist (not necessarily radical) Islam spur on a rebirth of more militant Christianity as a result?

Hmmm... a new Great Siege of Malta, perhaps? How Romantic!

[Каие]

We don't live in a secular society in the UK. Thank god.

[TheKwas]

We don't live in a secular society in the UK. Thank god.

?
Yes you do. Just because the UK government isn't a strictly Secular State due to the Chuch of England having a token say, doesn't mean the society isn't secular.

[Atlassmurf]

More extremist? Percentually not.

[Каие]

?
Yes you do. Just because the UK government isn't a strictly Secular State due to the Chuch of England having a token say, doesn't mean the society isn't secular.

Society isn't secular. It's Christian.

[My Favorite Martian]

Society isn't secular. It's Christian.

One day you may be a EU MP for the Torries. You will not have changed your background. I as a non european secular lazist would say, you're part of a secular society. - But I have to go back to the Star Gate rerun.

[TheKwas]

Society isn't secular. It's Christian.

No, most of Britain's social institutions are secular. The majority of citizens may be christian, but that doesn't really mean much. Turkey is a secular state and largely a secular society (so I hear, I never visited) and something like 97% of it's population is Muslim.

Last time I checked in this country we still celebrated Christmas and Easter as national holidays.

Is that your criteria for whether a state is secular? By all means France, Canada, and America must not be a secular republics either.

[Taiji]

We don't live in a secular society in the UK. Thank god.

Thanks for what?

It seems you assume to know the effect a 'secular' society has and don't like it. What is it that you know is true of all secular societies, past, present and future, that you find unpleasant?

(If you're just being silly as a joke then nevermind )

[Sher Khan]

The Western world, especially the United States, goes through phases of waxing and waning religious spirituality and revivalism.

But why, exactly, would the next shift be because of radical, fundamental or even plain 'ole Islam?

[Phier]

The Western world, especially the United States, goes through phases of waxing and waning religious spirituality and revivalism.

But why, exactly, would the next shift be because of radical, fundamental or even plain 'ole Islam?

Perceived threat. It doesn't have to be real. Nothing else currently fits the bill.

[Sher Khan]

Perceived threat. It doesn't have to be real. Nothing else currently fits the bill.

There are a lot of things that are challenging Americans' securities, and I don't think Islamism is particularly high on the list anymore with all the war-time demagoguery having passed (for the most part).

[My Favorite Martian]

Globalwarming

[Ummon]

I honestly don’t know on this one. Being non-religious myself it seems to be a ridiculous option, yet I am in the minority in my beliefs. I’d also like to think its impossible but what is scary is that people are more superstitious, believe in things like ghosts and ESP, now MORE than they did in the 1960’s (I don’t have a link, I read it a few years ago in a science journal). I think we are completely capable of reverting, and perhaps that is what worries me most about this renewed spread of Islam.

As to this tidbit: it would be logical and fully explainable. Science is our only paradigm for understanding the world: religion has been banned by the "well-thinking". This leaves several necessary human activities, functions and needs, uncovered. People resort to superstition.

There are, of course, things to be said about these arguments, which are not only superstition. Several scientists (including I think a british nobel prize) find that there are things to be learned for science in studying certain "parapsychological" phenomena.

[My Favorite Martian]

Will the rise of a more fundamentalist (not necessarily radical) Islam spur on a rebirth of more militant Christianity as a result?

Social pressure on one side produces likely social pressure on the other side if you have two profiled groups. Such a situation can be politically missued to secure advantages. It appears to me on the other hand more likely that strongely proviled ideological groups within a pluralilistic and secular society will go to exile and leave society (inner emigration) sooner or later, because their own enviroment will individualize and turn secular within an amount of time. Militance would be more typical for the fringes of society where marginalized groups live together (like sometimes in rundown suburbs which have no self-rule). Politics can prefent that by creating an enviroment where the pressure of the competition of groups is soften up or dissolved because members of a group-identity find out that they are more successful if they position themselves as individuals instead as members of a profiled group. My opinion is also that the civil society and politics should actively build up an enviroment where forms of group-identities have a place when they are productive for social coherence premised they are compatible with the norms and rules of a modern* legislation and the needs of the civil society. Sick and carrots if you want. The real thread would then be civil negligence, the citizens failing their resonsibility as citizens.

* modern includes secular as a social aspect in regard to legislation

[Каие]

Last time I checked in this country we still celebrated Christmas and Easter as national holidays.

[Phier]

Last time I checked in this country we still celebrated Christmas and Easter as national holidays.

Halloween is a bigger holiday in the US than Easter.

Its not what the gubment says, its what the people do that matters.