The war in Afghanistan is costing many NATO lives and if we withdraw the Taliban will take over Afghanistan and the freedom of the Afghans will be lost, should we withdraw?
If we withdraw we will see more of this:
Civis
Why We Fight.
The war in Afghanistan is costing many NATO lives and if we withdraw the Taliban will take over Afghanistan and the freedom of the Afghans will be lost, should we withdraw?
If we withdraw we will see more of this:
Re: Why We Fight.
The Peacemaker card.I love it.It is being used since the colonial era
Praeses
Re: Why We Fight.
works damn well thoughOriginally Posted by BlackPirate
"Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
Marx to A.Ruge
Ducenarius
Re: Why We Fight.
You mean they have freedom now?
Under the Taliban, you have the possibility of being killed because you happen to be a female who walks around unaccompanied, or if you don't keep a beard.
Under the new, "enlightened" US-installed government, you have the possibility of being killed because you happen to be a female who walks around unaccompanied, or if you don't keep a beard. The difference being that the one who is doing the killing will not be the Taliban, but a warlord affliated with Karzai, who is in turn supported by the US. So, Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Also, if you're hosting a wedding party, try not to fire your weapons wildly in the air, lest you might attract the attention of a passing B2 bomber.
Praefectus
Re: Why We Fight.
Do many of the Afghani women have beards?
"oooh a gypsy wind is blowing warm tonight, sky is starlit and the time is right. Now you're telling me you have to go...before you do there's something you should know." - Bob Seger
Freedom is the distance between church and state.
Dux Limitis
Re: Why We Fight.
The current regime is only slightly better than the Taliban one. They're corrupt, and evidently are nearly as religiously fanatic as their precursors.
Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.
Cò am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
A mhaireas buan gu bràth?
Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
Mar dhìthein buaile fàs,Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sìos,'S nach tog a' ghrian an àird.
Jajem ssoref is m'n korewE goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtompWer niks is, hot kawsones
Re: Why We Fight.
Eh. It is too late to avoid those pictures now. Najibullah died in 96.
Re: Why We Fight.
Self-justification at its finest.
Re: Why We Fight.
We should not withdraw. Victory or death, frankly. We have a volunteer army. The war should be voluntary too, and let our men fight it with the FULL monetary, logistical and resource support. The people be damned. However, an expedition in a foreign unstable and hellish land like this one must NEVER be repeated. Especially for the terrible reasons this war was based on, and the incompetence in which it has been managed. I opposed this war.
Re: Why We Fight.
"But we must never forget," said President Obama recently, "this is not a war of choice. This is a war of necessity. Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again. If left unchecked, the Taliban insurgency will mean an even larger safe haven from which al Qaeda would plot to kill more Americans. So this is not only a war worth fighting. This is fundamental to the defense of our people." 10
Obama was speaking to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the ultra-nationalist group whose members would not question such sentiments. Neither would most Americans, including many of those who express opposition to the war when polled. It's simple — We're fighting terrorism in Afghanistan. We're fighting the same people who attacked New York and Washington. Never mind that out of the tens of thousands the United States and its NATO front have killed in Afghanistan not one has been identified as having had anything to do with the events of September 11, 2001.Never mind that the "plot to kill Americans" in 2001 was hatched in Germany and the United States at least as much as in Afghanistan. What is needed to plot to buy airline tickets and take flying lessons in the United States? A room with some chairs? What does "an even larger safe haven" mean? A larger room with more chairs? Perhaps a blackboard? Terrorists intent upon attacking the United States can meet almost anywhere, with Afghanistan probably being one of the worst places for them, given the American occupation.
As to "plotting to do so again" ... there's no reason to assume that the United States has any concrete information of this, anymore than did Bush or Cheney who tried to scare us in the same way for more than seven years to enable them to carry out their agenda.
There are many people in Afghanistan who deeply resent the US presence there and the drones that fly overhead and drop bombs on houses, wedding parties, and funerals. One doesn't have to be a member of al Qaeda to feel this way. There doesn't even have to be such a thing as a "member of al Qaeda". It tells us nothing that some of them can be called "al Qaeda". Almost every individual or group in that part of the world not in love with US foreign policy, which Washington wishes to stigmatize, is charged with being associated with, or being a member of, al Qaeda, as if there's a precise and meaningful distinction between people retaliating against American aggression while being a member of al Qaeda and people retaliating against American aggression while NOT being a member of al Qaeda; as if al Qaeda gives out membership cards to fit in your wallet, as if there are chapters of al Qaeda that put out a weekly newsletter and hold a potluck on the first Monday of each month.
In any event, as in Iraq, the American "war on terrorism" in Afghanistan regularly and routinely creates new anti-American terrorists. This is scarcely in dispute even at the Pentagon.
The only "necessity" that draws the United States to Afghanistan is the need for oil and gas pipelines from the Caspian Sea area, the establishment of military bases in this country that is surrounded by the oil-rich Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf regions, and making it easier to watch and pressure next-door Iran. What more could any respectable imperialist nation desire?
But the war against the Taliban can't be won. Except by killing everyone in Afghanistan. The United States should negotiate the pipelines with the Taliban, as the Clinton administration unsuccessfully tried to do, and then get out.
Remember to smile
Re: Why We Fight.
Right... "never" again. And US will never again torture
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
Re: Why We Fight.
LOL, like its about those two for us in the broad sense of things.
This will just be like a dog chasing his tail endlessly...maybe we will get an window-opportunity to call for an "honorable retreat", but IMO kicking the Taliban in its balls the first weeks was enough of a point to make. Let the Afghanistanis sort themselves out if they dont want to be sorted out.
Artifex
Re: Why We Fight.
The problem is that the minute NATO forces get out, Taliban get back in.
They won't just sit idly, either.
They obviously have a score to settle, being deprived of their slaves for so long.
I don't know why people call them just religious fanatics. They are more than that. They are slavers. Pure and simple. I hope that the Afghan people realize this simple truth. I believe they do, as some of them defied the Taliban to vote, even as if that costed lives to some of them.
About 8% of Afghans support the Taliban but that's only when a Taliban gun isn't pointed at them or their families. Which is where the challenge lies, our choice: Abandon them or stay the course and try our best to set them free of their slavers? I don't think the Afghans have any doubts about what the Taliban really are and I don't think all the rest of us should, either.
Go Minerwars Go! A 6DOF game of space mining and shooting. SAKA Co-FC, Koinon Hellenon FC, Epeiros FC. RS Hellenistic Historian K.I.S.S.
Primicerius
Re: Why We Fight.
And if the Taliban are defeated? An instance Greek like country emergies and sudden proclaims it loves the Greeks?
I'm sorry but your not understanding the situation. The Taliban once defeated, will give rise to another more powerful and evil entity. The same reason why the NA developed. Not to go against the Taliban but because they were power hungry maniacs.
Simple answer is, the west won't leave and can't. Like quicksand, they will and are trapped forever. The taliban being defeated or not doesn't do anything. pre-1950, Afghanistan had a Monarchy that was ravaged by fighting continuosly. What makes you think that the west will solve any of these problems that have been going on for decades. Don't delude yourself.
As the saying goes here, when two afghans stare at each other there will ALWAYS be a fight.
Re: Why We Fight.
To be honest, this war can't be won if so much is hung up on the level of casualties.
Re: Why We Fight.
Yeah man deaths shouldn't matter at all.
Re: Why We Fight.
I'm not saying that at all. If it was up to me, and this war was winnable in the first place I would send the German troops down south as well and get it over with.
Sadly that country, apart from some regions and city's, is still in an medieval mentality and just doesn't want our help.
Then there is allot of talk about rooting out the Taliban(the enemy), but most of what is called Taliban are just local men being bored, or just fight occupiers like their tribal law tells them to do. There is no clear enemy to fight...
Then there is the Pakistan border and so on.
I cant see how this can ever be won, it just costs us money, attention, reputation and lives.
Re: Why We Fight.
How about instead of presuming.. we actually try? Is that not what left wing politics is based on? poverty, injustice, greed etc. are all inevitable and practically unbeatable. Global warming can;t be remedied and we can't achieve world peace... BUT they still carry on and on in those aims.
''Nothing is impossible to him who will at least try''.
No they shouldn't.
Re: Why We Fight.
White man's burden
Re: Why We Fight.
There is no conscription.
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